289FIA and concentric throwout bearing---or not?

[Dangerous Doug]

I'm getting ready to set up my driveline and I'm trying to determine which clutch slave system to use: standard throwout bearing with a clutch fork OR the concentric throwout bearing.

I have decided on a TKO-600, for which ERA recommends the concentric throwout bearing (I'll call it the CTB).

What, if any, are the repercussions should I elect NOT to use it? Anyone not using it on their 289FIA? Any regrets?

What, if any, are the hazzards of using the CTB? I'm told they may be a little "sensitive to how they're set up". Anyone care to comment? Anyone using it on their 289FIA? Any regrets?

DD

[RICK LAKE]

Dangerous Doug Doug I have tryed the Hydro thrown out bearing from Tilton. It was a pain in the A$$. I wasted 1 clutch that got full of oil on the disc and pressure plate. Once oil gets on these things you can clean them till the cows come home. The oil still seeps out of the disc. I tryed going out of the sand box from ERA. It was a $300.00 dumba$$ move. I have the orginial system back in the car and it is working fine. Tilton had problem with the thrown out bearing leaken, extending to far if you didn't have a stop for the clutch pedal. You follow what Doug says, and you will have no problems. They have redesigned the Tilton bearing. I may try it again 1 day. ERA tested these things before telling people that things work or don't work in there cars. They are there for you from start to finish. Rick Lake

[Dangerous Doug]

I'm considering the McLeod unit that ERA recommends.

Rick Lake: So, you're now using the McLeod concentric throwout bearing, or the master-slave-clutch fork method? What car do you have?

DD

[RICK LAKE]

Dangerous Doug I am with the originial setup from ERA. You have to modify the fork but it works just fine after you bleed system. I do have some added silver reflector tape like what ERA installs on all the cars to help with the high temps from racing. My Header tubes are also rapped too to keep the heat temp down in the engine compartment. The only thing I tell you is to stay away from any clutch with sliding weights. There is a limit to how much pressure can be applied to this clutch with weights that slide to increase pressure on the levers of the pressure plate. I believe that the Fork starts to bend and can't over come the pressure plate. I may go with a CTB with the new motor. I am going to the street twin from Mcleod. If not will end up with a smaller multi clutch assembly and then use a CTB for space. I am waiting to see if QT gets the bellhousing certified and stamped for the 498 setup. I really like saving 20 lbs from the car. The smaller bellhousing is nicer also. My car #is 428. You might need a pedal limiter for the CTB bearing. I have seen them over extended and what a mess, not mine. Rick L. I lost your phone number Doug. Send a private e-mail Rick.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I'm considering the McLeod unit that ERA recommends.

Just in case you missed David Kirkham's post yesterday (June 21, 2008). http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...242#post854242 Here are his thoughts on the McLeod hydraulic throw out bearing:

Now, many of you know I feel like the McLeod hydraulic throw out bearing has been banned from our shop as unworthy. So, we had to look for another unit. I figured I'd try a Tilton 61-601 hydraulic throw out bearing. Now, it says you HAVE to buy a base unit to use with that set up...baloney. We just make our own stuff around here

[Rickd]

Doug. Call ERA and talk to either Bob Putnam or Doug. After reading some of the posts (including Kirkham's) re the McLeod HTOB I called and specifically requested the external fork set up - "no can do" was the answer from ERA with the 289 - it is only an option on the 427 due to space / alignment. Doug said after McLeod redesigned their unit ERA tested it and had no failures. All of the turnkey 289 FIA cars have the HTOB setup. Rickd

[Pete Munroe]

Doug,

The new, current McLeod t/o is OK. The OLD unit, before 2003/4? was a leak just waiting for the fluid.

NEW unit, I think it is called Series 3, has an outer housing adapted from a patent GM abandoned. (same design as the c-4 Corvette I was told). If you see the NEW one you find the 90 degree hose fitting outlets are machined pieces and quite stable on the housing even though they are free to swivel.

The OLD earlier series "outer housing" (pre-2003? 2004?) was a BAD design, IMHO. It used banjo fittings. An upper/lower o-ring on a post, the banjo pretty much free to rock sideways on the post. On top of that, the QC on my post/banjo's were so sloppy there is NO WAY it could have sealed.

The RAM assemblies are OK on either one, and McLeod will upgrade your old type with the new outer housing hose assembly.

I now have about 10,000 miles since installation. No problems.

( My first unit was so bad I had to pull it after installing the engine...just weeped fluid out the banjos sitting overnight.)

The second time I pulled the clutch, I parked myself at McLeod's shop until they agreed to give me the first unit released to the public...they said it wasn't quite ready, and I suggested that it couldn't be any WORSE than the OLD unit! So far, 4 or so years and ~10K it is fine.

TIP...you MUST use a stop to limit your pedal travel or you will overextend the RAM. I used a suspension bumper bolted though the foot box...easy to screw in/out to get it where you want it.

Pay real attention to the clearance in your setup...I can not remember which way I would shade it, but you can't change the setting once its installed...so check it few times before you button it up.

Pete

[Dangerous Doug]

I'll take the word from Doug/Bob/ERA on the HTOB. I did talk to Doug at ERA, and he said he'd talk me through the setup/installation. I haven't had to ask ERA for much technical help, but this is something I wouldn't want to mess up.

I'll be pulling the original clutch master and line to ship back to ERA. Doug said they'd swap out the clutch master for a different unit, and will shorten and fabricate the line end for me for the new setup.

I'm kind of on a holding pattern with the Cobra build at the time-being. My 5 year-old son was diagnosed with ALL T-cell Leukemia about six weeks ago and I've had little time for anything else other than caring for him and working. I'm actually at the Lucile Packard Children's Hospital at Stanford as I write, and this is my "break". The prognosis is good: he's responding well to the treatment; however---for those of you "not in the know"---chemotherapy is Hell. 5 year-old should be out playing on his rope swing or his zip line, not laying in bed recovering from yet another round of chemotherapy. Sigh...

So, the Cobra: Is the correct part number in Summit Racing the #MCL-1405? Just like to make sure I'm getting the correct unit. I'll purchase my TKO-600 from Fortes in about a week. I still plan on getting my engine installed in August---hopefully. It may drag out a little longer than that given current circumstances, but first things first. I do anticipate standing in line Jan 2 2009 for my SB-100. Oh, and I just purchased a "289 Cobra replica 'road race'" oil pan from Armando. Should come in 3 weeks.

By the way, if anyone is interested in Cameron's progress, you can follow it at:
www.caringbridge.org/visit/cameronking

DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Pete M: Thanks for the reference. You must have posted while I was writing.

Cheers,
DD

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I My 5 year-old son was diagnosed with ALL T-cell Leukemia about six weeks ago and I've had little time for anything else other than caring for him and working.

I am so sorry to hear that. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

[AlexFIA]

I went with the Quarter Master HTOB on a 302 with a TKO600 with the standard input shaft. It required machining the tranmission front bearing retainer to a slightly smaller diameter and the addition of more shims under the bearing (additional order), but it seems to work. I have started my motor and had it in gear, but have yet to get the car on the road (still missing my front wheels from ERA), so I can't say how it drives or if I actually did adjust correctly. I have been able to check for leaks and nothing yet. I do not have a pedal stop, but plan to install one. Up until now I have just been gentle with the clutch. This will be installed later once I come up with a nice way to do it. I'll let you know once I get the car on the road and after a few miles. Other than the wheels, the car is done.

[Dangerous Doug]

Ordered and received my TKO-600 along with the clutch disc from Mike Fortes. Just got it yesterday. Waiting on the bellhousing from ERA and the "road race" oil pan from Armando. I sent in my clutch master/slave to ERA to exchange for the master cylinder appropriate for the HTOB. Need to order my McLeod HTOB & spacer from Summit Racing.

My son just went through another round of chemotherapy, but he's home again. We have one more round of being admitted to the hospital for chemo, and then we're doing all out-patient chemo (for the next 1-3/4 years...). Treatment at the Lucile Packard Children's Hospital has been outstanding. Good to have him home.

[SSSammy]

Doug, I've kinda been along this trail with the CTB since last Jan, when I changed from a Toploader to a TKO 600. With my new Pond block, there was no hole for the ERA slave mount, and I didn't feel like drilling one, and several McLeod CTB users were around and saying good things. I am using the new version 1400-30 slip-on. And I did have to return the first one because it leaked at the swivel fittings

So the first install last Jan, I had a little trouble getting enough volume out of the 3/4" Tilton cylinder ERA sent me, had to unscrew the clevis about as far as it will go. Then my pedal is depressed all the way to the floor to get disengagement. This became a little better as it got broken in. Been having a lot of fun with it, but recently find myself replacing the disc and pressure plate for more robust stuff

The most important aspect of the installation is the gap betwen the CTB and the pressure plate fingers. McLeod install instructions explain this, and I did also in another thread recently. You have to measure the distance from the PP fingers to the outside of the bellhousing and compare it to the distance from the bearing face to the tranny face. There should be from .10" to .30" gap between the CTB and the PP (before the slave cyl is bled and pumped up).

You may or may not need the McLeod CTB spacer (I am talking about a spacer that goes on the TKO bearing retainer before the 1400-30 adjustment collar goes on). McLeod swore that I had to have one if I was using the transmission adapter (the 5/8" plate that goes between the tranny and the bellhousing). I didn't need it, it turned out.

McLeod says "bleed the master, bleed the slave, bleed the master again, and bleed the slave again." If you don't do this, you may have problems getting enough piston movement on the slave to get clean disengagement.

Keep us posted as you get into it, and we'll try to help. CTB's are a little complicated, each installation is unique, but they work great once they are dialed in ...

Don't hesitate to call Doug if you need advice from an absolutely reliable source!

Sam

[Dangerous Doug]

Thanks for the advice. Waiting on the bellhousing, new master cylinder and line modification from ERA---and I've got to remember to place my order with Summit for the CTB...

Hard to keep my head on straight these days...

DD

[AlexFIA]

Got my car on the road to test it out and the hydraulic bearing works great. Thanks for the advice on bleeding the slave-master-slave, made a huge difference. Even though I used the Quartermaster bearing, adjustment was the same as the McLeod. Worked perfectly right off the bat, after the proper bleeding. I have a .75" long bumper purchased from McMaster mounted in the pedal box to limit the pedal travel, although I could possibly have gone without it. Although the mods required for the Quartermaster were a pain in the beginning, looking back it was not that big of a deal and I can provide info if anyone goes this route.

[ERA Chas]

DD,
How is your boy doing? Well I hope.

[Dangerous Doug]

Hi, thanks for asking.

Cameron finished his final round of inductive chemotherapy. No more in-patient treatments---it's all out-patient. He's doing good, and is starting to act like his old, chipper self. It's quite a relief to be done with the inductive chemo. Still have another 1-3/4 years of out-patient treatment, so this is really just the beginning.

To complicate matters, I've been fighting a kidney disease for about 11 years. So far, I've been able to manage it. The recent stress of Cameron's illness and changes to my employment has pushed me over the brink, so it seems, and I'm now slated for a kidney transplant sometime in the Fall (yes, like it a couple of months...)

Holy cow! Can any MORE stress be added to my life right now? Sheesh!

On the Cobra front, I'm installing the Armando road race oil pan, and will put on the Quicktime bellhousing and TKO-600 shortly. I hope to have the engine in next week. My "last" shipment from ERA is due this week, so that'll net me the driveshaft and side pipes. Working on my Cobra is my stress relief.

So, Cameron is fine. Me, not-so-good. Cobra is coming along.

DD

[ERA Chas]

DD,
In no way to diminish the battles you're fighting now -if you need a little more life stress I'll send my wifey over for her patented "arguement therapy".

Only bad thing is you wind up looking like me.

Great to hear about the boy-now we're gonna swing the prayer wheel over to you.

Never lift.

[Dangerous Doug]

I'm already well covered in the wifey argument therapy realm. They say you can't fight emotions with logic, but I keep on trying...

Rollin' with life right now. If I need a transplant, I need a transplant. Glad I'm insured...

Going to try to get my Armando oil pan on tonight, and maybe the flywheel and clutch.

Armando replica Cobra road race pan is a work of art. Exact replica of the oil pan I've seen in vintage photos of 289 "race" engines. Sweet.

I've got the concentric throwout bearing to install. I need to put in a stop for the clutch pedal...

DD