Bob P. -- Ignition Switch Woes

[patrickt]

Bob, I've been having an intermittent "no crank" situation that began after I thought I imagined that I was having to turn my ignition key just a little farther before the starter began cranking. It would "come and go" and when it came there was either no cranking or a "delayed cranking" of a second or two after turning the key. Like all intermittent electrical problems, it would vanish by the time I'd get a VOM or circuit tester on it. Initially, I put a half-a$$ amount of effort in to figuring it out -- I load tested the battery, checked the connections and ground, and tried to listen for the starter solenoid (aka "starter relay") to click on the firewall. On the last "no crank" situation there was absolute dead silence; no click of the solenoid. Well that's it, I thought -- and of all the items in the ignition circuit that's the easiest one to change. Then, of course, the car started right up. Alright, time to get serious -- so each time before I would start the car I put a blue 12v light on the starter motor side of the solenoid and a red 12v light on the red lead to the solenoid. The idea was to see if there was a "lag time" between when the lights came on. Well that paid off -- neither light came on at all when the intermittent problem reared its ugly head. I then put a remote starter switch across the solenoid, pulled the trigger, and it cranked normally. Turning the ignition key resulted in silence. Turning it again, and it cranked. OK, we're getting closer. I pulled the red lead off the solenoid and taped it. Then I put the 12v light on the center terminal of the ignition switch (pic below), and turned the key to the start position. Light came on. Did it again, light came on. Third time and held it in the "start" position for about 10 seconds -- slight flicker? Fourth time, held it in the "start" position and JIGGLED the key -- the light blinked on and off. Once again, the "jiggle test" comes through. If I jiggled just right I could have the key in the "start" position with the light completely off. So, will you send me a new ignition switch along with a bill or do I need to call someone? And if so, who?

[rads42]

OK, I'm going to resurrect this 11 y.o. thread. This exact thing has happened to me over the last couple weeks. the first few times it was just once and I assumed I hadn't turned the key far enough but yesterday it took like 7 tries, sometimes nothing would happen, sometimes I'd hear the solenoid click and then finally it fired right up perfectly. So Patrick was a new ignition switch the fix?

[patrickt]

Yes, that's exactly what it was. What I did to find it was to put little 12v trouble lights, fastened by alligator clips, along the ignition switch to solenoid to starter line and watch them each time I started the car. Sure enough, one time I tried to start the car and the trouble lights showed no current whatsoever on the starter pole of the switch, much less at the solenoid or anywhere else downstream. By carefully jiggling the switch, I was able to get the lights to come on and the car to start. Bob P. sent me a new switch, gratis, that had been re-threaded to use the fancy bezel. No problems since.

[rodneym]

I just had an ignition switch go bad. I took apart the old one to have a look-see. Mine had some play between the metal housing and black plastic back. IMO this can result in intermittent connections. Try to clocking the switch back and forth (from the housing) and see if you can mimic the problem. Of course be careful what your touching.

[davids2toys]

I found this thread in a search because I am suspecting my ign switch for a different problem. My car is just all of a sudden shutting off while driving and both times was moving very slowly and both times the car was running perfect up until it just shut off. The first time 2 weeks ago it did it pulling into a cruise night. We were testing for spark and there was none while cranking. A friend had a new coil and that worked. So we actually hooked my orig coil back up to replicate the problem and the car started. I figured it was the coil reaching the end of its life. We re-hooked up the new coil and I made it all the way home (about 15 minutes). I bought the new coil from him and figured problem solved. The next week the car did it again in another friends driveway. Tried 3 different coils and no spark from any of them. Ended up having to flatbed it home. Now I am thinking MSD box but according to MSD tech dept, the box is not suppose to quit like that, when it is done, that's it, no gradual death. They were thinking coil also until the second time.
I did check all the wiring from the box and it is all good. now i am suspecting the ign switch.
The car has been sitting for almost 2 years due to back surgery and then a year later knee replacement surgery. drove it a few time last fall with no issues. Recently I drove it 3 different times with no issues before having this problem.
Any thoughts?
Lesson learned here is have much more spare parts on hand in the trunk and have a much better selection of tools to work on the car when stranded with a problem.
My spares parts kit will now contain new, ignition switch, fan belt, cap, rotor, coil, voltage regulator, new MSD box, MSD distributor magnetic pick up.
Thanks...Dave

[patrickt]

Here's what you do: Hook a nice 12v test light to the small red wire that runs to the MSD box, along with a good ground, and have it hanging out of a very visible place like the corner of your glove box. It will light when you turn the ignition on and will go off when you turn the key off. Drive your car around until it dies again and immediately look at the light. If the light is off, then the problem is in your ignition switch or wire feed to the box. If the light is on, then immediately get out and check for spark (you're likely not going to have any). With a no spark condition and a confirmed 12v going to the MSD box you then proceed to the classic "no spark" diagnosis with a MSD box, coil, and distributor pick up.

[davids2toys]

Great idea, I did this minus driving around like that hooked up. I only have the light with the probe so how would you hook that up. i went looking on line for a type of test light with 2 clip ends on it instead of the probe, but I do not see anything like that. i suppose I could maybe make a wire with a terminal end on one side and fasten it to the IGN terminal of the switch and tape the other end securely to the probe, then hang it from the glove compartment somehow.
I also tried jiggling the key like crazy with the ignition on and the dashboard amber light lit, could not get the light to blink at all. I should try to probe the small red wire going from the switch to the MSD box and then wiggle the wire near the switch to look for a bad terminal connection

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Great idea, I did this minus driving around like that hooked up. I only have the light with the probe so how would you hook that up.

Go to the auto parts store and buy a 12v light, then strip back the insulation on the skinny red wire (not the fat red wire) as close to the MSD box as you are comfortable stripping it. You're not cutting the wire, just stripping the insulation back. Then wire your light directly to that stripped portion and the other lead of the light to a good ground. It's important that you wire it in right next to the MSD box because the positive feed to it on an ERA is not coming directly from the ignition switch that is only two feet away. Instead, the feed goes all the way out around the front of the engine and back, so don't cut corners on this test or you could be misled.

[davids2toys]

Sorry Patrick,
I am not the electrical guru that you are. I need you to dumb this down a bit. 12v light? Are we still talking about a test light, or something like this
https://www.grainger.com/product/20C...7A1P:20501231?
My small red wire goes directly from the MSD box to the IGN terminal of my ignition switch. there is also a green wire going to the same IGN terminal of my switch. Is that what you are maybe thinking goes to the front of the car?
I have never stripped the wire in the middle of a run. Is there a proper way to do this? When I am done testing, do you just wrap the stripped part with electrical tape or cut it and butt splice it?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

. 12v light? Are we still talking about a test light, or something like this...

That light would be perfect. And the way you strip a wire in mid-span is with a razor blade. You just lightly shave the plastic insulation off just like you were whittling a stick with a pocket knife. You should practice first on a regular piece of insulated wire while you sit in front of the TV. Just take your razor and slice about an inch of plastic insulation off without sticking the razor in so hard that you break one of the copper strands. If you practice a couple of times you'll end up saying "Dang, this is actually pretty easy." And then when the tests are over, you just wrap black electrician's tape around the spot that you shave off. Nothing to it.

EDIT -- And you shave the plastic off all around the wire so there's a nice 360 degree gap of plastic insulation. That makes it really easy to wrap your mid-span tap around that gap for a nice connection. And if for some reason you wanted to make it permanent (which you don't for this test) then you would just melt a little solder on it and you've got a nice, permanent soldered tap.

[Gaz64]

David,

I have a length of wire with a pin soldered to it, that I lightly pierce a wire in question, then tape the outside secure. The pin goes in near parallel to the conductor. The wire is now accessible for testing with a testlamp or multimeter. The wire only has a pin hole that is easily taped afterwards.

A testlamp can be a 3w bulb or LED, depending on what we are looking for.

Sometimes I also like to use a relay, as either a operated latch, or set to drop out if loss occurs, depends on what we are looking for.

[davids2toys]

OK, sounds easy, thanks. I ordered these from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So what do you think of the second part of my post about the small red wire from the MSD box going directly to my ignition switch?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

So what do you think of the second part of my post about the small red wire from the MSD box going directly to my ignition switch?

That's a simpler and more direct method than the supplemental ERA wiring kit for the MSD box that runs the little red power wire's connection out through the firewall, up to the front of the engine, and into the harness clip there that would normally power the positive side of an old style coil, and then back through the firewall again to the ignition switch.

[davids2toys]

Interesting

[FredG]

Good thread. I have had 2 issues with the MSD ignition and they were both a pain in the ass to diagnose. One was a bad coil that worked intermittently. The other was a bad magnetic pickup that had a broken wire inside the insulation that also worked intermittently.

[DanEC]

MSD - May Suddenly Die (at any moment)

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Interesting

And if you don't have a VOM (Volt-Ohm Meter), pick one up off Amazon. Any meter will do and don't spend more than $25.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by FredG

Good thread. I have had 2 issues with the MSD ignition and they were both a pain in the ass to diagnose. One was a bad coil that worked intermittently. The other was a bad magnetic pickup that had a broken wire inside the insulation that also worked intermittently.

Had them both myself and after calling MSD tech and this forum it was not that hard. In fact their direction have a whole bunch of good quick troubleshooting which is how I ended up at the ignition switch. I found this extremely valuable from page 10 of the MSD box instructions:

"If triggering with the Magnetic Pickup:
1. Make sure the ignition switch is in the "Off" position.
2. Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and set the terminal approximately 1/2" from ground.
3. Disconnect the MSD magnetic pickup wires from the distributor.
4. Turn the ignition to the On position. Do not crank the engine.
5. With a small jumper wire, short the MSD's Green and Violet magnetic pickup wires together. Each time you break this short, a spark should jump from the coil wire to ground. If spark is present, the ignition is working properly. If there is no spark skip to step 6 below:
6. If there is no spark:
A. Inspect all of the wiring.
B. Substitute another coil and repeat the test. If there is now spark, the coil is at fault.
C. If there is still no spark, check to make sure there is 12 volts on the small Red wire from the MSD when the key is in the On position. If 12 volts is not present, find another switched 12 volt source and repeat the test.
D. If, after following the test procedures and inspecting all of the wiring, there is still no spark, the MSD Ignition is in need of repair. See the Warranty and Service section for information."

So to add to this, the tech told me if you have spark, then that means the coil and box are good and your problem is in the distributor, most likely the magnetic pickup. My mag pick up failed 3 years ago. I had good spark with the jumper wire but the car would not start and was not getting spark to the plugs. I changed out the pickup and it was fixed! Cheap enough part to just take a shot. Just bought an extra one for the trunk. I probably will do the same with this ign switch, just change it out, but I will check out the small red wire and terminal integrity first. I already bought a new switch and I ordered a spare for the trunk emergency kit. I also ordered the die so it will accept the ERA fancy bezel.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

And if you don't have a VOM (Volt-Ohm Meter), pick one up off Amazon. Any meter will do and don't spend more than $25.

I have a few of them, in fact one of them is a clamp meter that you recommended to me a few years ago

[patrickt]

If you end up replacing the ignition switch, with an identical new one, there are three porcelain insulators between the terminals. The one that would normally be pointed directly down at the 6 o'clock position will likely interfere with the lip of the dashboard and it must be ground down in order to fit. Other than that, an ignition switch change out is about a fifteen minute job. Getting that little bezel off is the hardest part, but if you look at the two slots you can see how you would fashion a little makeshift tool to unscrew it.