Current FFR Bilstein Shock Issue!

[John McMahon]

Originally Posted by kris-kincaid

I can't believe that Bilstein is the problem. They make nice shocks. The Shelby spec racers use Bilsteins and they've never broken. I thought Pro-Shocks on FFR's broke also? Shelby has been using Pro-Shocks for several years and never had a failure. I have a hard time believing Bilstein and Pro-Shock just sends all their defective shocks to FFR and the rest of the world gets the good stuff.

You would think with multiple brands of shocks failing and folks talking about the stress of the load causing the failure, that you could determine that its a design issue and not the shock. I don't blame Bilstein for not following up.

Has FFR looked at any of the cars that have had shock failures? Is there a commonality in the type of failure between all the cars affected? I would think FFR would have inspected each car personally to determine the cause and make a formal statement. Has that happened? I doubt it.

Since these are 'component cars' I don't think they are held to the same federal standards as the 'big three' regarding failures.

[TButtrick]

I corrected my above post. I'm using ProShocks on my ride. Not QA1s. I'm only aware of perhaps three ProShock failures. One broken rear spring on a Coupe and two others where the shaft unscrewed from the internal piston. Nothing like the Bilstein failures. Please note.. I'm not saying Bilstein shocks are all bad, just might be the wrong shock for the application and we don't know how they were specd' in. The shaft on the new Konis are at least twice the diameter of the Bilsteins.

[GTA]

TButtrick, My car is finished . It's been on the road since June of last year. It's setting in my garage waiting for FFR to send me a product that's safe to drive on the street. I don't care what brand it is as long as there not breaking.I'm not looking for a free upgrade, I only expect to get what I payed for.Roger

[TButtrick]

Sorry. Missed that little detail. You're pretty much screwed then.

[TButtrick]

I haven't been following EVERY failure but this seems to be isolated to Bilsteins with other brands failing were isolated to specific issues. Again, only very few failures of other brands which were not related to breaking the shaft. The common failure I've been reading of is a break at the shaft and locknut where they meet at the heim end like the pic below. What makes me think it's not the geometry is that there have been some that have failed while rolling uncompleted builds in and out of the garage. Can't be much travel in those cases.

[TButtrick]

and another

[Hoofa]

Originally Posted by TButtrick

From my recent education in fracture analysis, It looks as though FFR built in a good margin of safety. Notice how large the beach areas are compared to the area of final fracture. If you could just take that stress riser out of the equation, it would probably be a pretty strong shock. How could we do that??? Big nuts??? Prove me wrong, I've been an expert in this field for about 15 minutes.

[TButtrick]

and another

[TButtrick]

and another

[Bobcat]

TButtrick .... I don`t have a dog in this at all as I have an ERA , but I also have 30+ years in Hydraulics and over 15 years with hydraulic cylinders . A shock and a hydraulic cylinder have a lot of similarities ... piston , rod , rod end , tube , spherical rod ends etc . They also function somewhat similar . The two biggest failures I saw in the field , specifically sawmills , on kickers and set works carriages were rod end breakage and rod seal leaks . The typical reasons for rod end failures were : misalignment , undersize rod , too small rod thread and not seating the spherical rod end solidly against the shoulder of the rod . This gives you a bending moment and you will get a failure due to metal fatigue ... which is what I think I see on your pictures . Having said this , another type of failure can occur if there is a stress riser where the thread starts on the rod ... caused by the tool being too sharp and not leave enough radius at the starting point . That`s why we rolled our rod threads and didn`t cut them .
A major problem at the mills was the collapsed distance of the cylinder was shorter than the space it had to go in , so the rod end was unscrewed to compensate and a jam nut run up against the rod end . This gave a bending moment on the thread and eventually failure . A solution was to stack a spacer under the rod end and jam nut so the forces were transferred to the unthreaded part of the rod and not the threads .
Please understand that I`m not saying this is what the problem is .... I`m just putting my past experience out there as food for thought . I`m also not saying that the shock supplier has a problem ... again , just my 15 years experience in the field .... and sawmills can be hell on equipment !
Sorry for the long post .

[CowtownCobra]

What flavor Koolaid is it they make you guys drink?

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by CowtownCobra

What flavor Koolaid is it they make you guys drink?

Evidently a more tasty flavor than LS provides considering the unit volume of both. If you took the time to read the thread dipsh!t, you'd see that everyone agrees that FFR hasn't handled the problem well regardless of the party at fault. I think everyone here is trying to figure out why things are failing.

[mrmustang]

The basics are that:
A: Factory Five spec'd out a set of Coil Over shocks (including projected price points) to Bilstein.
B: Bilstein built and delivered those shocks to FFR per FFR's specifications and engineering drawings.

The Fault lies with the person(s) who engineered the shock FFR wanted to supply with their kits.


Bill S>

[ENTDOC]

well bill, that would be FFRs problem to deal with Bilstein not the customers problem, they bought the product from FFR and thus FFR is the responsible party to the customer.

[BobTheBuilder]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

well bill, that would be FFRs problem to deal with Bilstein not the customers problem, they bought the product from FFR and thus FFR is the responsible party to the customer.

Not necessarily true, but be that as it may, FFR is trying to deal with Bilstein. So far Bilstein has been less than forthcoming!

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

well bill, that would be FFRs problem to deal with Bilstein not the customers problem, they bought the product from FFR and thus FFR is the responsible party to the customer.

Well no sh!t. That's what we've been saying all along. The questions was whether or not FFR should be holding Bilstein's feet to the fire. Dave DID dig deep into his pockets but I wouldn't say the same for Bilstein.

[ENTDOC]

well todd, why dont you get on the phone to Bilstein then? Whether FFR holds Bilstein's feet to the fire is of little importance to most customers unless they bought their shocks directly from Bilstein. who cares how much it is costing Dave Smith, it is ultimatly his responsibility.

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

well todd, why dont you get on the phone to Bilstein then? Whether FFR holds Bilstein's feet to the fire is of little importance to most customers unless they bought their shocks directly from Bilstein. who cares how much it is costing Dave Smith, it is ultimatly his responsibility.

Clueless in SC,

You have to read more than just the first and last post.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

well bill, that would be FFRs problem to deal with Bilstein not the customers problem, they bought the product from FFR and thus FFR is the responsible party to the customer.

But the question remains, just who spec'd out the shocks for the FFR in the first place? FFR or Bilstein? Also, was there a budget constraint like "we do not want these to cost us more than $100 for a set of 4 (regardless of what they marked them up for and sold to their client base)? Finally, if it is one or the other, which company should be eating the costs for the recall and proper replacement items being shipped? Again the blame lies in just who spec'd, designed, or engineered the defective items in question, not necessarily the actual manufacturer.


Bill S.

[xlr8or]

Dave/FFR should pony up to the customers and do it as soon as they can. He's admitted it's a safety issue and needs to get it resolved for his customers. Then he can go after Bilstein if he thinks he has cause to do so.

When Ford does a recall for wiper motors they don't have the customers go to thier supplier and try to make a deal on an upgrade. They fix the damn cars and work it out with the vendor on the back side like they should.


Oops there's that common sense thing again.