Current FFR Bilstein Shock Issue!

[Maricopa]

Bill I just swapped out my B-steins and at full suspension droop my shocks were not at full extension. The lower A-arms were the limiting factor.

[GTA]

Well I guess I'm past the anger part . But It amazes me just how much this going to cost the builder.I just read on FFR a guy bought the Koni's and now he needs to buy a new set of LCA's.The Koni's will not fit the pre 03 FFR LCA. Thats another $500.00. And still the lovefest go on.Roger

[Bobcat]

Hoofa , Mrmustang , at the risk of having both of you on me , IMHO , I think you are both right . After looking at hundreds of rod end failures on sawmill equipment throughout the country , I saw identical rod end failures ... all at the juncture of the neck down area where the the thread starts . Failures were mostly traced back ( assuming the rod diameters and material were correct to start with ) to bending forces transmitted to the weakest point and over extension/bottoming out of the equipment the cylinder was connected to . Generally at that point ( full extension/full compression ) , the equipment placed not only a pulling/tensile/compressive load on the rod end , but also a bending moment . I realize that a hydraulic cylinder isn`t a shock , but the similarities are pretty darn close .
In a very few cases , it was because the tool used to cut the threads was too sharp and created the stress riser ... which is why we used rolled threads.
We normally solved the breaking issue by going to a bigger thread (full thread) , adding a spacer to move the load away from the weak neck down area , or in extreme cases , a bigger rod . However , all of this also went along with correcting the over travel and misalignment .
Am I 100% correct ?? Don`t know , just 20 years experience in the cylinder industry ... and again , I think you are both going down the right road .

[GTA]

Was'nt the Bilstein shock porgram doing that? Bigger shaft size.Roger

[Maricopa]

Yes, before B-stein called it off the deal was to send them back and have new guts and a larger shaft put in.

[GTA]

I just got off the phone with FFR. Lucky me, I have the shocks that are on the list. I was told that Dave is having a meeting with Bilstein today. I was also informed that FFR did not spec the shocks. I was told that FFR gave them a car and told them to design a shock to fit it. After the shock was made , FFR questioned Bilstein as to whether the shaft was large enough.Bilstein said it was .That does'nt let FFR off the hook with me, they sold me this crap, but if someone were to lawyer up,Bilstein has does have a dog in this fight. All's it's going to take is one person to get hurt or killed and the $#!t will fly, and a bunch will fly Biltein's way as well.Roger

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by GTA

I just got off the phone with FFR. Lucky me, I have the shocks that are on the list. I was told that Dave is having a meeting with Bilstein today. I was also informed that FFR did not spec the shocks. I was told that FFR gave them a car and told them to design a shock to fit it. After the shock was made , FFR questioned Bilstein as to whether the shaft was large enough.Bilstein said it was .That does'nt let FFR off the hook with me, they sold me this crap, but if someone were to lawyer up,Bilstein has does have a dog in this fight. All's it's going to take is one person to get hurt or killed and the $#!t will fly, and a bunch will fly Biltein's way as well.Roger

Roger,

Interesting, who told you this? (not about the meeting today)?


Bill S.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by GTA

I just got off the phone with FFR. Lucky me, I have the shocks that are on the list. I was told that Dave is having a meeting with Bilstein today. I was also informed that FFR did not spec the shocks. I was told that FFR gave them a car and told them to design a shock to fit it. After the shock was made , FFR questioned Bilstein as to whether the shaft was large enough.Bilstein said it was .That does'nt let FFR off the hook with me, they sold me this crap, but if someone were to lawyer up,Bilstein has does have a dog in this fight. All's it's going to take is one person to get hurt or killed and the $#!t will fly, and a bunch will fly Biltein's way as well.Roger

This is new info. Who is your source?

[GTA]

I don't know the guys name . I did'nt ask him for his name, and he did'nt offer it. I called and ask for someone who could help me with the shock problem and the guy that answered the phone said he could help. He infromed me that FFR adviced me not to drive my car at this time. He said that he thought that Dave was having a meeting with Bilstein today. I ask him directly who spec'ed the shocks.He told me that FFR did not spec the shocks. He said he was pretty sure that FFR gave them a car for them to design the shock to fit. He also said that FFR questined the size of the shaft . You guys can call and ask the same as I did.I wished I had thought of asking the guy for his name. Roger

[Tugboat]

Being a business owner and not having a dog in this fight I was just enjoying reading this thread and all the post and I had a thought. What is the amount of cost in this matter being discussed! How many of these shocks were sold and what would it cost either of the companies involved to resolve. Thousands, Hundreds of thousands or maybe millions? I am curious what this amount of bad Publicity could have been saved by just trying to resolve this problem more quickly. How many potential customers read this forum (my thoughts are alot) and make decisions based on others experiences. I know that you have to read between the lines on this entire issue, BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a curious observer, Any guesses out there?

Larry

[Maricopa]

Easily in the hundred of thousands. I know Dave mentioned 'quarantining' 60K worth of B-Steins recently. That was just stock on hand, not counting the 3 years worth of cars wearing them.

Edit: Latest news posted at FFCobra

To all FFR Customers

If you are driving a FFR chassis kit that uses Bilstein shock absorber part number: F4BE3 A273-T0, F4BE3 A273-T1 or F4BE3 A273-T0 SR, we recommend that you stop driving your car immediately. This recommendation is based on the fact that fifty of these shock absorbers have broken with one having broken as recently as this past weekend. The shocks have broken primarily at the shaft and the cause for such breaks appear to be varied. The above shock absorber part numbers are stamped on the shock body and these shocks were used on the front suspension and the rear independent suspension in kits sold from approximately 2003 to August 1, 2008. If you do not know how to determine if your car is affected, please call us at 508-291-3443 and ask for technical support.

Factory Five has attempted in good faith to negotiate a resolution to this shock issue with Bilstein. Indeed, our engineers have been in constant contact with Bilstein for two years, and I have been communicating with Bilstein’s President, Doug Robertson for the past two months.

Unfortunately, despite Factory Five’s best-efforts to work on a resolution with Bilstein, Bilstein has refused to accept responsibility or to undertake any kind of action to replace the affected parts. Factory Five has gone so far as to provide Bilstein with customer’s broken Bilstein shocks for diagnosis and testing. However, Bilstein has been mostly silent as to its findings. Rather, Bilstein has blamed every single possible factor for breakage (the shock coil-over kits, washers and zip ties, customer assembly procedure, customer abuse, improper springs, etc.) on someone or something other than its own product. Regardless of whether the product is defective or not (this is a point of contention with Bilstein) what is NOT in doubt is the fact that they have broken and that Bilstein has the ability to make and provide stronger parts... parts that their own engineers have admitted will not break when subjected to the same conditions that seem to have caused breakage in the current parts.

Bilstein now has our samples of broken shocks and reports and data from our customers. Further, we are aware customers have spoken to Bilstein and its team directly about these broken parts at trade shows. Notwithstanding the patently obvious, Bilstein has gone silent and will not return correspondence from Factory Five. This is particularly frustrating inasmuch as Bilstein’s President has represented to Factory Five that he would imminently arrange to meet with Factory Five in Wareham to attempt to work through these issues. Two weeks have elapsed and still no word as to when this purportedly will occur.

We at Factory Five are concerned for your safety. While we cannot speak as to Bilstein’s concern, or lack thereof, we are at least cautiously optimistic that their sense of moral obligation and mutual concern for your safety will lead them to help us and our customers.

Please know that Factory Five is exploring potential means by which we can provide you with a replacement shock absorber that will be more resistant to such breakage. Frankly, the cost of doing so, without the assistance of Bilstein, is such that it could threaten the very existence of our company. As matters currently stand, Bilstein has already engineered a stronger version of the exact same shock. This was our request of them more than two years ago and we were told it was not possible. Imagine our consternation when their engineer informed us that they could easily make these shocks stronger after we were told by other Bilstein representatives in the past that this could not be done. This new shock was made for us some weeks ago and our engineers concurred with theirs that this would have been (and is now) the right part for the job. This new shock has a thicker 14mm shaft (in lieu of the current 11mm shaft) and improved bearings. This new design was determined by Bilstein's engineers to be significantly stronger and better suited for the foreseeable uses in the Factory Five kits assembled by both novice and more sophisticated customers. We are actively seeking these replacement shocks to provide to all customers who have the above referenced part numbers.

Therefore, at least for right now, we strongly recommend that you do not drive your Factory Five car containing the above-referenced Bilstein shocks. We will continue all efforts to obtain and provide replacement product with or through Bilstein and will keep you fully apprised of any developments as soon as they occur.

[convincor]

It was said in one of Daves post that if he where to do what most wanted, which was to replace them with Koni's cost would be around $1.4 mil.

[jhv48]

Bilstein has officially "lawyered up"!

[jmimac351]

It may be that Dave's biggest mistake was to place too much faith in what Bilstein was telling him about these breakages - re: "we can't make them stronger... the shocks are up to spec", etc - and instead go with what his gut probably told him about these parts a while ago.

Here is the post where Dave mentions the cost of swapping everyone to Konis. It's only $1.3 million.

http://www.ffcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193060

[convincor]

Originally Posted by jmimac351

It's only $1.3 million.

just adding a little for me.

[Questor]

I wonder if an enterprising lawyer might entertain a class action suit against Bilstein? It seems we would certainly have enough people to make it worth someone's while.

[John McMahon]

Originally Posted by Questor

I wonder if an enterprising lawyer might entertain a class action suit against Bilstein? It seems we would certainly have enough people to make it worth someone's while.

I would think you would be going after FFR since they sold you the car with the shocks that were obviously 'not right' for the car. FFR should be going after Bilstein....not you.

[marky]

It may not be Bilsteins problem, I would say that they know what they are doing and by refusing to comment or do anything they probably feel they are not to blame.

That being the case why should they!

All supposition at this point.

[Questor]

Originally Posted by marky

It may not be Bilsteins problem, I would say that they know what they are doing and by refusing to comment or do anything they probably feel they are not to blame.

That being the case why should they!

All supposition at this point.

True. It really depends on how the shock was designed or matched to the application. If Bilstein was involved in the design or specified which shock to use, I would think they (Being the shock EXPERTS) would be the ones most qualified to have known there was/would be a problem. If they were just given an order for a particular shock, then they might be able to say they couldn't have known.

I know this isn't exactly the same, but my job is hugely involved with safety and accident investigations. In what I do the person responsible is the person with the highest authority who should have known about the problem. Would the FFR people or the Bilstein people have been more likely to have known there would be a problem? I'd GUESS it would be the most expert person in the field.

:shrug

[GTA]

I spoke to a guy named Dan Sept 25 at FFR. He informed me that FFR sent a FFR car to Bilstein and had them design the shocks for the car. From what he said FFR had no part in designing the shocks.From the way he was talking it sounds like FFR is about to start lining up their lawyers. I have the feeling we will be hearing somthing pretty soon.I pulled all of my shocks off the 25th to inspect and clean.The shock on the front passagers side has a stress riser at the base of of the threads.I sent it to FFR , they should be able to to tell me whats the deal. I would'nt send it to Bilstein.I don't trust them as far as I can spit.So far FFR has been slow about addressing this problem, but I think they still care about their customers.Roger