Please help me ID a possible 427

[d_ford]

I'm talking to a guy via email that has what is supposed to be a 427 for sale at a decent price and before I go look at it I would like to be armed with the info I need to identify it. He sent me a few pics so I'm hoping some of you can help me out. It has 428CJ heads on it, the casting number on them is C8OE-N but the block looks to me like it has cross bolted mains. There are 3 bolts per side on the block skirt, would this be correct? I was thinking only the 427 and 406 had cross bolted mains? The only numbers I see in the pics on the block look like C4AF and I can't make the date out, it looks like D1E or O1E, I'm not sure. Any for sure way to figure out what this thing is short of tearing it down and measuring bore and stroke or looking for an engine size cast inside the water jacket? Thanks in advance.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by d_ford

Any for sure way to figure out what this thing is short of tearing it down and measuring bore and stroke or looking for an engine size cast inside the water jacket?

The super short answer is "No." And see this thread: http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/fe-talk/96217-427-cobra-jet.html#post940018

[d_ford]

Thank you for the link. It does have the three bolts on the side of the block. I imagine this engine is a hodge podge of different FE parts but mainly I was concerned with the block.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by d_ford

Thank you for the link. It does have the three bolts on the side of the block. I imagine this engine is a hodge podge of different FE parts but mainly I was concerned with the block.

The cross-bolts are a good sign, but you can have any FE cross-bolted for a few hundred bucks. You could also stick fake ones on with super glue. To be absolutely sure of what you're buying you pretty much have to take it apart (even if you see the side oiler galley, you still should take it apart).

[d_ford]

I hate to ask the guy to tear his engine apart. I do understand what you're saying though, it could still be any FE with cross bolts added. I'm tempted to just buy it and hope for the best since I think it's a very low asking price. Heck the CJ heads are probably worth close to a grand if they're any good.
The side oil galley you're talking about, is it the plug between the freeze plugs in that pic in the other thread? I'd like to know what I'm looking for.

[Tom Kirkham]

I would at least pull the pan off so you can see the crank (forged, 428 or 390), rods (LeMans, 390, or Chevy), pistons (forged or cast), main caps (4 bolt main or glue on bolts), etc. You will also be able to see the cylinder bores and get a good idea as to what kind of shape they are in. This will go along ways in giving you some peace of mind. Also which harmonic balancer is on the engine?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by d_ford

The side oil galley you're talking about, is it the plug between the freeze plugs in that pic in the other thread? I'd like to know what I'm looking for.

The galley runs down the driver's side of the block. I tried to find a nice EZ to understand photo of the SO block and for some reason couldn't seem to find one for you. The shot below is from the ERA web site and is better than nothing. If the engine is in running condition I can understand the "not wanting to take it apart" position. If it's not running, I would think the guy would be receptive to somebody saying "I'd like to have the engine dis-assembled, and you get to keep all the parts." If it were me, my proposition would be "Let's agree on the price. Then I'll pay to have it dis-assembled and tested and if it passes, I'll buy it, and if it fails, you get all the parts back and you can then sell them individually on Ebay." He should go with that deal because it means either the block is not what he says it is or it failed an important test.

[RICK LAKE]

d_ford Doug you may not like this but from the numbers you gave,
C4AE-F CASTINGS ARE FOR A 390 PI MOTOR, solid lifter police special
It is easy to convert the bottom end from 2 main caps to cross drill. I have a 390 block that was sold to me as a 428 block and got the main caps,#2,3,4 to convert to a cross drilled block.
The head numberC80E-N IS A 68-70 428CJ OR SCJ HEAD NUMBER this head comes with 2.08" intake valves and 1.66" exhaust valves. cambers are 73cc-76cc.
I have used this ford parts identifier for years and to date have not gotten wrong info out of it. I would also tell you to go on the FE forum and ask these questions again, There are some real pro's with all the correct info.
I am going to suggest this to you, if the price is good, you want a receipt from him, in his writing with a 3rd person present at the time of buying to witness this and have him write down what is in this motor part numbers and all the casting numbers you can find. If down the road your machinist fines out there are problems you have a recourse to get your money back. Don't let this motor sit for the next 2 years in your garage. Buy it, send it to a FE machinist for pull down and inspection of cylinder walls. (sonic check). Have a basic rebuild done. Side note, you might want to think about running a stroker kit in it instead of rebuilding parts inside already unless this motor is going into a parade car or used for EASY driving. Barry R. sells great stroker kits that are balanced. All the parts are new. Something to think about. The other thing is BBC rods have wider bearings than FE rods and weight a little less. 3 years with his kit and abusing the hell out of it, very happy. Rick L. If you want to talk more,send me a PM.

[FFR428]

Doug looking at the back of the block can help tell you a few things. The 406 and 427 topoilers had the oil pressure relief valve. Looking at the rear cam plug you should see 2 holes at 12:00, one ontop of the other. The bottom one should be a threaded plug that houses the releif valve. The one above it is the main oil galley for the cam bearings and if still original would have a cup plug. Or it could have been changed to a threaded plug possibly over the years. The block should not be machined for hyd lifters and should not have plugs at the 10:00 and 2:00 positions around the rear cam plug. The block would not be a sideoiler casting. The block should have press in freeze plugs if original. If so you can remove a few freeze plugs and use Dave Shoe's drill bit test to gap the wall cores. Personally I wouldn't buy a engine I wasn't allowed to inspect. If you can post the pics you have it would be helpful. Good luck!

[Dwight]

428 Cobra Jet Block Identification
428 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet block identification has proven to be a vexing problem for Ford enthusiasts. When you consider that Ford often mixed and matched casting molds among multiple FE (Ford-Edsel) engines it becomes extremely difficult, if not downright impossible, to identify a 428 Cobra Jet block on sight without considering several clues. Sadly, I believe that the short answer is that it is impossible to identify a 428 Cobra Jet block with complete confidence while the block is installed in a vehicle. Read ahead and form your own opinion!
So you're looking at a block and wondering if it's a 428 Cobra Jet block. Ford made a lot of FE engines during the 1960s, so these blocks are still quite common in cars, trucks, and at swap meets. That's good news if you're looking for a 390 or passenger car 428, but bad news when trying to determine if the engine installed in the Mustang you want to buy is in fact a 428 Cobra Jet (believe me, I know!). Thankfully there are a few external clues that can help narrow the search space somewhat.

Engineering numbers on FE blocks of the 428 CJ era will be found on the front passenger side of the block, if present. Engineering numbers on FE and FT (Ford Truck) cylinder blocks cast since 1966 no longer indicated the type of block, but became a leftover formality from earlier days when the foundry had far fewer block variations. As the decade closed, the Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF) and Cleveland (C) Foundry would stop placing these deceptive engineering numbers on new engine block patterns. The engineering numbers would return when the new Michigan Casting Center (MCC) started producing FE and FT blocks in the early '70s. MCC blocks would not contain the familiar "352" marking of years past, but would instead use "105" as a general identifier. The picture above shows a CJ block that lacks engineering numbers. Engineering numbers that appear frequently during the CJ era include C6ME, C6ME-A, C7ME, C7ME-A, and C8ME, but beware -- these markings do not indicate a specific block whatsoever, since any FE or FT block of the period can be found with any of these numbers. The service part number for all 1966 - 1970 428 blocks is/was C6AZ-6010-F.
Take a close look at the bottom edge of the block above, just above the oil pan rail. See the two bolt heads? These are unrelated to the famed cross-bolt bosses. The function of these two threaded and blind holes is to fixture the block for machining on the assembly line in the engine plant. Those familiar with cross-bolted main caps on late 406 and early 427 blocks will note these holes are in the same position as two of the cross-bolts. Since 406 and 427 blocks must be fixed for machining, these two cross-bolt holes are additionally tapped, so the holes provide the double-function of fixing for assembly and cross-bolting to reduce crank saddle stresses. Later 427 blocks use a slightly different hole pattern for fixing on the assembly line, so cross-bolts can be installed on the assembly line while the block is still fixed.
Some blocks have a "428" cast onto the floor inside the water jacket. There are two common positions to view this protruding number: one is just inside the center freeze plug hole, the other is directly beneath the long coolant slot at the rear of the block. If present, you can be sure the cylinders are thick enough to support 428 pistons, core shift permitting. If the number is not visible from either position, you'll need to make other verification checks. Measuring the gap between cylinders using a drill bit is the easiest way to determine whether your block is capable of supporting 428-sized cylinders. It is presently thought that if the shank of a 15/64" drill bit will NOT fit between the cylinders at any reachable spot in the six core holes, the cylinder will likely handle a 428 bore, core shift permitting.


"428" Casting Mark Inside Water Jacket
Picture courtesy of Paul Cavaghan
An FE block's casting date can be found just below the oil filter adapter on the front driver side of the block (see below). Casting dates follow typical Ford convention with the first character (a digit) representing the year, the second character (a letter) representing the month, and the last one or two characters (one or two digits) representing the calendar date in the casting month. The block in the picture above has a casting date of "9J15", which translates to September 15, 1969 -- early in the 1970 model year. Keep in mind that Ford first introduced the 428 Cobra Jet in April, 1968 as a mid-year option during the 1968 model year. There were earlier prototype and drag cars produced during calendar year 1967, so it's fairly safe to assume that block casting began no more than a few months in advance of production. Again, there are no absolutes here, but if the block you're looking at has a casting date in mid-early 1967 or earlier it's probably NOT a 428 Cobra Jet block. It MIGHT be a 428 Police Interceptor block, though.

If you have access to the rear of the block, the most definitive method for verifying that you are looking at a reinforced 428 block (as used in most 428PI, 428CJ, and 428SCJ applications) is to check the rear face of the block for a scratch mark manually installed at the foundry which roughly reads "C"; see above photos. If the marking is an "A", it suggests you're looking at a standard 428 block as used in LTDs, Thunderbirds, and Mercurys. Shortages in 1968 sometimes caused the engine plant to substitute an "A" block for a "C", or vise-versa, so the presence of an "A" block is possible in a stock CJ engine. SCJs typically only received "C" blocks because the "A" block was discontinued from service toward the end of 1968. If there is no marking on the rear, it is most likely an ordinary 360/390/410 block. Since the scratch marks are year-dependent, you must verify that the block's date code shows it's of 1966 vintage or later. I've received reports of "C" blocks being cast as early as November 1967. Note also the three oil gallery plugs above the rear cam plug. All 428 Cobra Jets were originally equipped with hydraulic camshafts. If you don't see all three screw-in or press-in plugs you can bet that the block was originally equipped with a solid lifter cam and is not a CJ or SCJ block.




"C" Casting Mark "C" Casting Mark "A" Casting Mark
Note also the flat pad in the upper left corner of the first picture above. Starting in 1967 for the 1968 model year, Ford began stamping partial VIN information on production engine blocks to meet the requirements of Title 49, United States Code, Subtitle VI, Part C, Chapter 331 (effective January 1, 1968). This pad is where the information would often be stamped on a 428 CJ. The stamping is nearly impossible to see on this particular block, but knowing that those numbers are there gives new meaning to the term "matching numbers" when talking about Ford engines. Here's a picture of one such partial VIN, 9R181708 (thanks to Peter Manson). Note how irregular the stamping can be:

I've also received reports from people who have found partial VIN stampings on the rear of the driver's side cylinder head. Given normal production line schedules and procedures I have no doubt that the person doing the stamping could put the marks in either place.
One of the most telling clues can be found inside the engine. Thanks to Bill Lewis for the images!



FE crank saddle webbing may be of either the standard or the reinforced type. Standard webbing, shown in the left hand photo, contains two ribs directed into the block's skirt. Reinforced webbing, shown in the right hand photo, adds a third rib running horizontally into the skirt. Many FE blocks have standard webbing and nearly all FT truck blocks, used in Series 500 to Series 800 heavy trucks, are of the reinforced type. Actually, all FT blocks are supposed to have reinforced webbing, but occasional deviations from this can be found. High performance blocks of 1960-62 were the first FE blocks to contain the reinforcement ribs. 406 and 427 blocks also received reinforced webbing. This feature was carried into the 428 PI block in 1966-70, and was inherited by the CJ and SCJ, which shared the 428PI block. Reinforced webbing became rather common in all FEs after 1973 or so, possibly because they were being worked hard in Series 100 through Series 300 light trucks. The days where Ford installed FEs into station wagons was long past.
An article titled "Ford Enginuity" from the August 1987 edition of Muscle Car Review states that "All CJ blocks were cast with a misalignment in the oil passage in the #1 main web". I don't know if this situation is unique to the CJ block, but it is something to check for when rebuilding. The solution is to radius the oil passage opening to match the hole in the bearing insert. Thanks to Al Trapanese for bringing this article to my attention.
Thanks to Dave Schouweiler for his contributions on this page.

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© 2009 Scott A. Hollenbeck. All Rights Reserved.

[Dwight]

I have a 428 that I pulled from a '67 "Q" code stationwagon. It has a reversed "S" on the back of the block. I think the 428 blocks have "A", "C", "S" and maybe the fourth was an "I" or "P". I forget.
My block has all the heavy webbing like a 427 block. I could buy the 427 main caps and have mine crossbolted.

The suggestion to remove the pan and take pictures is a good one.

Dwight

[Dwight]

[Dwight]

this is a link to a company that sells FE motor parts. I think it's a good indication of price.



http://www.dscmotorsport.com/Engine/index.htm

Dwight

[ERA Chas]

Here's a Sideoiler showing screw in freeze plugs, side gallery and cross bolts. Also-everything that Rick said x2.

[d_ford]

I knew this was the right place to go for information. Thanks to everyone.

[d_ford]

Here are the pics he sent to me. Not very good I know, but it's all I have to go on for now.

[FFR428]

That sure looks like the C8AX deep sump factory oil pan. If so those are $$$ alone with the pickup. Casting number is pretty slurred to make out on the block. It would be a C4AE-6015-A for the 427. I also understand the 406 service block for 64 was the same C4AE-A 427 block just with a 4.13 bore. No doubt should be certainly worth a look.

[dlampe]

I have a 427 block (I think) that is a cross bolt block but the casting numbers aren't back by the starter, instead over the moter mounts. It reads "C3AE" then under that it reads "6015" with no letter after the part number. The freeze plugs are not screw in. The block is .040 overbore. Is that to much on a center oiler? The builder said he has seen them go to .060 but I thought .030 was about all you could do.

[dlampe]

sorry, wrong thread

[Dwight]

Dean We have a Cobra buddy with 427 s.o. bored .042" over with no problems.
Keith Craft honed it from .040" to .042" to clean up a few scratches.

Dwight