Upcoming FE build: plan coming together

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by aks801

At this point I'm looking to go with the Factory Five product (hard to argue with the amount of support available), but once the Hurricane car is available again next year I'll be taking a close look there as well (more correct body shape being primary reason). Point being, I'd have no issues with using a 390 block as a starting point.

I think that's a great idea. The FFRs have a look that I particularly like and putting a 390 in it will make it run like a bat out of he11.

[olddog]

Since no one said it, many 390 blocks can be safely bored to a 428 - I think that is 4.130" bore if memory serves me. Maybe half the 390 blocks have enough meat. It requires sonic testing, but it is done quite a bit.

If your 390 block has enough meat, why not?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

For a replica to have any significant additional value with a 428 vs. 390 block - I just don't see it. They're just FE's. Step up to a cross-bolted, sideoiler big bore 427 block, and THAT's a significant difference. 390 vs. 428 block - there really is no difference at all, value wise.

That's my $.02, your mileage may vary.

For me, there's a significant "value" difference. With all other things being equal, I will buy the Cobra with the 428 every day of the week and twice on Sundays over a Cobra with a 390. But that's just me. Part of the decision for me is emotional and I do not get emotional about a Cobra with a 390 regardless of how "it looks on paper."

The '67 Mustang GT could have had a 390 in it, depending on options. Shelby or someone inside SA decided to "upgrade" to a 428 for the GT500. Sorry folks, I can't remember the story.

The OP seems to be steering towards a 390 and that's great, if that's what he chooses. My opinion always seems to be in the minority.

My viewpoint is biased of course. I also chose an alloy body, because I wanted to closer in authenticity to the original. I think the 428 is the better choice between the two (390 versus 428). IMHO.

[patrickt]

Good 428s are getting harder to find. They're still out there though. There's a zillion 390s left -- so it's possible, I guess, that in 10 years a 428 could have a significant value added to it simply because you can't find them any more.

[lovehamr]

RK, I don't think that you are in fact in the minority here. I chose to use a 428/462 FE in mine which has caused quite a few problems for me but when it's done it'll be beautiful. The fact that there are some things that seem to separate one Cobra from another in terms of value to the majority of buyers is also indisputable. Hence my belief that you are NOT the minority on this. Some of the things that jump to mind as separators are, CSX#?, aluminum body?, 427/428 FE?, independent rear suspension?, and color (tangerine with pink flames don't cut it). Of course there are others that aren't coming to mind right now but you get the drift. There will also be exceptions to the rule as well. Right now there is a SV car with a 390 and straight axle priced at almost 65k. It's a beautiful car and I hope he gets what he wants, but I won't be taking any bets on it just because of the 390 and solid axle.

Steve

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Right now there is a SV car with a 390 and straight axle priced at almost 65k. It's a beautiful car and I hope he gets what he wants, but I won't be taking any bets on it just because of the 390 and solid axle.

Probably what he put into it (down to the last tube of weatherstrip adhesive) plus a percentage for his labor. A nice thought, but...

[patrickt]

... everyone here is not building their car with resale value in mind. Some are building their car solely for the enjoyment that it will bring or to make it the way that owner wants it. For example, there are probably more people that would pass on my car, because of the dual roll bars, than would seek it out because it does indeed have them. I think by the fact that he's putting in an FE at all in his FFR that he should be applauded.

[Gunner]

Absolutely - if you're building a car, it's first and foremost for *you*. I haven't meant to harp on resale value but since most of these cars do end up sold, sometimes much sooner than planned or expected, my cautions are not to throw out all consideration for resale issues.

To which I'll add: do plan on throwing out a minimum of 20% of what you spend as builder or first buyer of a Cobra - *any* Cobra built after 1967. You might regain some in appreciation but adjusted for time and inflation, it won't be much. That pelf is the net cost of doing it your own damn way and your own damn self... and I'd be the last to say it's not worth it.

[patrickt]

"It seats two, but it's built for one."

RodKnock, have you checked your rev limiter settings yet?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

"It seats two, but it's built for one."

RodKnock, have you checked your rev limiter settings yet?

A better question is "Have you opened the garage door lately?"

I don't think the rev limiter is the issue, but I don't want to derail someone else's thread.

Regarding resale value, as Gunner said, it shouldn't be the main objective in a build, but you have to take it into consideration since the majority of Cobras will be sold by their 1st owner.

I pray that never happens to me, unless I'm upgrading to a new Kirkham.

[patrickt]

1. Yes, took her out yesterday, for probably the last ride of the year, after the going started to get a little rough on one of the other threads.

2. Start a new thread and update the rev limiter issue.

3. I guess I agree with that.

4. Doubtful, you already have the perfect car.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

For me, there's a significant "value" difference. With all other things being equal, I will buy the Cobra with the 428 every day of the week and twice on Sundays over a Cobra with a 390. But that's just me. Part of the decision for me is emotional and I do not get emotional about a Cobra with a 390 regardless of how "it looks on paper."

The '67 Mustang GT could have had a 390 in it, depending on options. Shelby or someone inside SA decided to "upgrade" to a 428 for the GT500. Sorry folks, I can't remember the story.

The OP seems to be steering towards a 390 and that's great, if that's what he chooses. My opinion always seems to be in the minority.

My viewpoint is biased of course. I also chose an alloy body, because I wanted to closer in authenticity to the original. I think the 428 is the better choice between the two (390 versus 428). IMHO.

Rod,
We agree more than we differ on this. The main difference is with your line "all other things being equal." I assume you are talking cost as well in that statement? If the 428 block were $100 or so more than a 390 block I would certainly consider it. However with most of them now in the $1800 - $2500 range, and a 390 block in the $100 range, there is just no justification for a replica with a 428 based on that cost differential. If someone scores a huge deal, or had one laying around, sure, but at 20X the cost, I still don't get the point. If someone asks what's under the hood, and you answer a 445" FE, no one knows what the block is. If it means that much tell 'em it's a 428 block, other than getting under the car and checking the block number against a reference book, there is no way to tell, and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Damn, for the $2000 saved, you could buy some very, very cool parts for the engine, there's no telling what you could buy. Again, I'm with you all the way on the FE, I just don't get the allure of a 428 over a 390, especially when you bore and stroke both, which almost everyone does now. There's just no real difference.

[Gunner]

I'm not convinced that 428 blocks are in that range. CJs, maybe. But yer average 68 Galaxie sedan motor, .020-.030 over and with no faults? Nah. Maybe $1k for a very good example. If you have to have a PI or CJ or SCJ... well, you're going to pay for it. Just as if a 427 top-oiler isn't good enough, you're going to sell another car to pay for a good SO block.

I'll concede that good 390 blocks are somewhere between $0 and maybe $300. So the difference is somewhere between $500 and maybe-maybe $1,000... which, I will maintain, will show up come second-buyer time.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Rod,
We agree more than we differ on this. The main difference is with your line "all other things being equal." I assume you are talking cost as well in that statement? If the 428 block were $100 or so more than a 390 block I would certainly consider it. However with most of them now in the $1800 - $2500 range, and a 390 block in the $100 range, there is just no justification for a replica with a 428 based on that cost differential. If someone scores a huge deal, or had one laying around, sure, but at 20X the cost, I still don't get the point. If someone asks what's under the hood, and you answer a 445" FE, no one knows what the block is. If it means that much tell 'em it's a 428 block, other than getting under the car and checking the block number against a reference book, there is no way to tell, and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Damn, for the $2000 saved, you could buy some very, very cool parts for the engine, there's no telling what you could buy. Again, I'm with you all the way on the FE, I just don't get the allure of a 428 over a 390, especially when you bore and stroke both, which almost everyone does now. There's just no real difference.

Once in the car, I couldn't tell the difference for sure. Heck, I would need a Ford casting numbers book, and three wise men, to figure out the difference between a 390 and 428 (or whatever FE block) with the block right in front of my face, stadium lighting and a magnifying glass.

Nothwithstanding my lack of knowledge, I would feel more emotional about having the 428. On paper, you're right. 390 is cheaper and makes just about the same HP.

When I said all other things being equal, I meant everything about the car including the car, trans, etc., internal parts of the engine, but for the block and differences in the build required for a 428 vs. 390, if any.

I just looked on the FE Forum and saw two complete 428 shortblocks for $1,800 obo and a complete CJ for $4,000 obo. Of course, who knows about the condition, but I think you could get a 428 block for much less than your figures. For a $1,700 (using your low end #) difference, I would opt for the 428, but that's me. And trust me, I'm NOT normal.

Obviously, there are people out there willing to "upgrade" to the 428 block.

[patrickt]

You can't rely on casting numbers -- the only way to tell a 390 from a 428 is to take off a piece of the engine and peek inside. Actually, you can't tell a side oiler from a 390 in our cars because you can't see under the car to find the cross-bolts without jacking it up (much less to see the side galley) and it's too hard to use a mirror. A 390 with the extra webbing that can be bored out nicely and is stroked to 445 is just as good as my 428CJ that is bored out to 447 cubes. I have a shorter stroke for faster revs (and a slower piston speed), but that's mostly bogus.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You can't rely on casting numbers -- the only way to tell a 390 from a 428 is to take off a piece of the engine and peek inside. Actually, you can't tell a side oiler from a 390 in our cars because you can't see under the car to find the cross-bolts without jacking it up (much less to see the side galley) and it's too hard to use a mirror. A 390 with the extra webbing that can be bored out nicely and is stroked to 445 is just as good as my 428CJ that is bored out to 447 cubes. I have a shorter stroke for faster revs (and a slower piston speed), but that's mostly bogus.

Please don't give me logic. That never works on me.

I did add the verbiage of having three wise men with me, since I have no clue. Chevy's are far easier to decipher.

I want a 428 over a 390, "and that's all I have to say about that."

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I want a 428 over a 390, "and that's all I have to say about that."

Alright, how much more is my 428 worth to you over that of an equally performing 390? Assuming both are built pretty much like one another and with similar performance specs. A thousand, two grand, five grand?

[RodKnock]

Well, hypothetically speaking, if you assume the "two-roll bar" issue doesn't exist, I would more than likely pay, as my premium over a 390, the cost to locate, purchase and build a 428, less any adjustments for mileage, or other detractions such as replacing any "disco" parts. As I said, all other things being equal, like two ERA's built exactly the same, the 428 would have a premium of a couple or few thousand FOR ME.

However, if the ERA with a 390 were discounted $-wise to a point relative to the 428, then I would buy the ERA with the 390.

Edit: As Gunner said, CJ's, PI's and SCJ's add more value.

[patrickt]

Well, I'm glad I went with a 428 then. Now you know you can get the same peformance from a nice 428 block that you can from a nice 427SO block (if you don't know that, take my word for it, you can). Would you rather have a 427SO over a 428 that has better performance and street manners? In other words, even if the 428 is better, would you still opt for the SO, assuming the SO is still a very nice engine?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Would you rather have a 427SO over a 428 that has better performance and street manners? In other words, even if the 428 is better, would you still opt for the SO, assuming the SO is still a very nice engine?

Well, my CSX block is not a sideoiler, as you know, so having a sideoiler wasn't the be-all end-all for me, BUT yes, I think the preponderance of Cobra AND FE buyers would prefer the sideoiler. Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by better in terms of a 428 over a SO. Does the 428 have Webers? Does the 428 have Edelbrock aluminum heads? Does the 428 have a stroker kit and not the SO? Does the 428 have an Aviaid pan and not the SO? There are many variables, but all things being equal, the SO is more valuable and hits the emotional button more for me over the 428. As probably a lot of people.

How much in terms of value is a little tougher since there are the early solid lifter type, the later hydraulic lifter type and I'm not sure which I would prefer, though I think you can convert the soild lifter to a hydraulic lifter, but again, I'm just an FE novice.