Upcoming FE build: plan coming together

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

There are many variables, but all things being equal, the SO is more valuable and hits the emotional button more for me over the 428. As probably a lot of people.

The issue is "at what point does the emotional button take a back seat to either performance or cost?" SO blocks are cool, but they will not get you any more performance than a 428 block. Plus, 428 blocks are no less "original" than SO blocks. The oiling difference has been solved for years, so that's not a big deal. It's purely an "emotional thing." You really can't even see the difference in the two blocks (unless you put the car on a lift). The same is true of the 390 v. 428 debate, with the caveat that 390 engines were never original, but that's balanced off by the fact that you can't tell the difference even when they're on a lift!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The issue is "at what point does the emotional button take a back seat to either performance or cost?"

I may be your atypical buyer, so don't use me as the norm. At some point, the scales would tip back to the 428 versus a 427 for me, but it would take a whole lot of some heavy substance to push that figurative scale back in favor of the 428.

I'm not saying anything outside of the FE norm: 4) 352, 3) 390, 2) 428, and then 1) 427. No news there.

[patrickt]

Now lets peel the onion one more time. You insist on a block that has a number attached to it (428) that you can't see, that has no effect on performance, but that touches an "emotional button," yet you make no such demands on the internals that comprise the vast amount of your engine's build. In fact, I would venture to say that you may have no Ford parts whatsoever on and in your block! How do you distinguish the fact that you make no requirements on having authentic internals? It can't be performance related, or the fact that you can't "see" the difference -- you already dismissed those two characteristics, so it must be something else. Right?

[RodKnock]

Within the boundaries of common sense and reason, I make little, if any, compromises on much of anything. So I reject your statement with prejudice.

In fact, I felt Diet Coke was a dietary compromise and I dismissed that over the long holiday weekend.

BTW, we're off-topic here. So, if we want to continue this digression, we should probably start a new thread. Although I assume Ron or Jamo would step in and quash our discussion, if it were the case.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Within the boundaries of common sense and reason, I make little, if any, compromises on much of anything. So I reject your statement with prejudice.

In fact, I felt Diet Coke was a dietary compromise and I dismissed that over the long holiday weekend.

BTW, we're off-topic here. So, if we want to continue this digression, we should probably start a new thread. Although I assume Ron or Jamo would step in and quash our discussion, if it were the case.

Well, you see my point. It's pretty tough to justify some choices on any grounds other than "I just know I want it." And that's ok. When I was spec'ing out my car, I went with the rule of "if I can't see a difference, and there is no performance difference, then I will put in the cheaper part." Or, if I couldn't see the part at all (like a transmission) then the decision on the part was purely performance based. Since I had, and have, no intention of ever selling the car, "re-sale" value never really entered in to the equation. That's a long winded answer as to why a 428 is in my car, but it could have just as easily been a 390.

[RodKnock]

Let's just say my engine was very expensive, but I originally started the engine selection process for my car with a used 428 or 427 block in mind. In fact, I almost bought a '64 427 High Rise engine, but as I mentioned before, for weight reduction, starting fresh with a new parts, etc., etc., I made my choice(s).

I still have my eye on a Cammer though, one of these days.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by patrickt

It's pretty tough to justify some choices on any grounds other than "I just know I want it."

Name any other justification for a car that's loud, crude, basically uncomfortable, impractical in almost every respect, low-mileage, high-maintenance, difficult to drive, incompatible with anything but good, clear, dry weather, a cop magnet, a DMV nightmare and over 50 years old in style.

Hey, "I just know I want it" is good enough.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I still have my eye on a Cammer though, one of these days.

The prices on cammers are coming down as parts get more available. I have no doubt that one day you'll have a cammer in that car.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The prices on cammers are coming down as parts get more available. I have no doubt that one day you'll have a cammer in that car.

Getting past the "Who's Gonna Build It?" question and the "What the heck did you do to my footboxes, steering linkage and headers?" question, I'll have to start with another $5,000 aluminum SO block (Pond), and the $5,000/pair Bill Coon heads, and you've not even touched the middle and top section of the engine (crank, pistons, rods, cams, intake, induction, cover, pan, blah, blah, blah), "one of these days" may turn into "never."

[patrickt]

The cammer will cost roughly the same as a Camry.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The cammer will cost roughly the same as a Camry.

You are correct sir.

Speaking of choice, the OP is thinking of putting Webers on his potential 390, which brings me to agreeing with an earlier post by Gunner maybe. If it were me, and I do realize it's not me, then I would take that $4,000 bill for the Webers (Rokndad just spent about that with all the sundries) and trade for a $4,000-$4,500 Pond or Genesis block. But that's me.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You are correct sir.

Speaking of choice, the OP is thinking of putting Webers on his potential 390, which brings me to agreeing with an earlier post by Gunner maybe. If it were me, and I do realize it's not me, then I would take that $4,000 bill for the Webers (Rokndad just spent about that with all the sundries) and trade for a $4,000-$4,500 Pond or Genesis block. But that's me.

Over in the Lounge he mentioned possibly, maybe, just maybe, "upgrading" to the new Hurricane in 2010. If so, an FE with Webers in the new Hurricane could be a really, really nice car.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

How much in terms of value is a little tougher since there are the early solid lifter type, the later hydraulic lifter type and I'm not sure which I would prefer, though I think you can convert the soild lifter to a hydraulic lifter, but again, I'm just an FE novice.

So as not to misslead anyone:

The solid lifter blocks have no provision to pump oil to the lifters. They oil by splash only. You cannot put hydraulic lifters in a solid lifter block, however you can go the other way.

[olddog]

Even Ford took 390 blocks and bored them and sold them as 428 replacement blocks.

So, I have to ask: one engine is a block that started out as 390 that has been bored (with plenty of wall thickness - no overheating problems) and now has 428 pistons and crank in it. It is a true 428 now. Another engine always was and still is a 428. Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

If it were me, and I do realize it's not me, then I would take that $4,000 bill for the Webers (Rokndad just spent about that with all the sundries) and trade for a $4,000-$4,500 Pond or Genesis block. But that's me.

One thing is for sure, the Webers would be the absolute LAST expenditure I would make in the process of gathering the goodies. As a matter of fact, I would build out the car (390 or 428) with a cheap Sidewinder or PI manifold and a Holley 3310 on top and go drive it for 1000 miles. THEN, if I still had the Weber Woody I would maybe do it. But things look a whole lot different after 12 months of building one of these than they look when you're just surfing Club Cobra with a Hurricane brochure in one hand a Coors Light in the other.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by olddog

Even Ford took 390 blocks and bored them and sold them as 428 replacement blocks.

So, I have to ask: one engine is a block that started out as 390 that has been bored (with plenty of wall thickness - no overheating problems) and now has 428 pistons and crank in it. It is a true 428 now. Another engine always was and still is a 428. Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

The problem being that us FE fanatics take 428 blocks and bore them out even larger...

A 428ci "428" would be a dead giveaway in this crowd.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by olddog

Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

Well, that's an individual choice and I'm on the record stating that the 428 block has more value to me than a 390. If there were no difference in value between the two, then 428's would be priced equally with the 390.

El, I was going to drive my car for 2,000-5,000 miles and then make a decision on the Webers. Right now, I'm enjoying the simplicity of the carb and turkey pan. That was Rokndad's approach and it seems sound to me.

[Barry_R]

Don't want to upset anyone. But Ford did not turn 390s into 428s for service. You occasionally find a 391 truck block that'll go to the 428 bore, but they are not the norm by a long shot. Some service blocks were apparently 391/428 castings that could be machined as needed - but they had 391 features like the big distributor hole and the compressor oil return passage. Most .080 over 390s are ebay specials that'll split a cylinder wall somewhere down the road. Could last hours, weeks, or years - no guarantee.

The 428 has a different water jacket core and normally has the numbers "428" cast into the floor of the jacket either below the center freeze plug or visible looking straight down through the front and/or rear coolant opening on the deck. Anybody buying one that knows their stuff also knows this and the price will reflect that inspection. The 428blocks are in high demand for the Mustang market.

A 427 will outpower a similarly equipped and sized 428 or 390 pretty much all the time. The bigger bore equals better breathing. No question about it. If I am building a Cobra for myself its gonna be either a max effort 427+ racer type of deal or a 390 based sunny day cruiser. I think the 428 is a great middle ground selection - but I am not much of a "middle ground" guy

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

A 427 will outpower a similarly equipped and sized 428 or 390 pretty much all the time. The bigger bore equals better breathing. No question about it. If I am building a Cobra for myself its gonna be either a max effort 427+ racer type of deal or a 390 based sunny day cruiser. I think the 428 is a great middle ground selection - but I am not much of a "middle ground" guy

Barry, I know you can get 550HP out of 428 block, you've done it before. That seems to be right around the "usable limit" of HP for most Cobras. Can you get that out of a 390 block and have it last, say, 25,000 miles before it needs refreshing?

[aks801]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Speaking of choice, the OP is thinking of putting Webers on his potential 390, which brings me to agreeing with an earlier post by Gunner maybe. If it were me, and I do realize it's not me, then I would take that $4,000 bill for the Webers (Rokndad just spent about that with all the sundries) and trade for a $4,000-$4,500 Pond or Genesis block. But that's me.

Hey everyone, OP here.

Whew! Thought I'd go ahead and step back in. This comment resonated with me, as it really reflects the individual and passionate nature of these cars. Elmariachi (my H-town neighbor who I need to hook up with and meet sometime!) also stated that Webers were the last thing he'd do, in terms of build order. I'm just the opposite of both of these: the high-priced aluminum block would be fantastic, but just not something I would allocate the bucks on. Webers are something I want right out of the chute. So, we all makes our choices, as they say. To me, if I go with a 390 block I won't feel like I'm "settling" or something. It gets me into the FE family, and everything from the heads on up will be exotica (yep, you can go ahead and substitue an r for that x, by the way...).

It's all good....