Diagnose broken rocker

[Excaliber]

George at Gessford Machine mailed me an adjustable pushrod then walked me through the valve geometry for getting it just right. I mailed the adjustable push rod back and then he supplied the various parts I needed for the engine build.

Well, thats one way to get an adjustable push rod.

[RICK LAKE]

Priobe Phil Looking at the valve stem the roller tips has too much travel in the last picture accross the top. The pushrods like othrs have said are way too long, guessing .080"-.110". The cup is too high to the adjuster and you will find that most or all the the pushrods may be hitting the edge of the rocker.
If you want to stay with Dove, OK. I started with dove had some problems with 2 sets of rockers and ended up with ERSON. IMO you will not find a better setup with a 4 bolt retainer kit like the OEM one. Jesel and T&D are the best at this time but need to have the oiling changed and the heads machined to work. I think someone on another forum said that one of the comapnies is coming out with a straight bolt on setup. I knows it's cheap to build rockers without a bronze bushing inside the rocker and I don't like this thinking. Oiling supply and pressure to the rockers is another Key issue with how long the live and having the correct geometery of the valve train. Rick L. ps hang the Doves on the wall and buy a set of Ersons, or have Santa get a set for you for the 25th. Then do the pushrod length setup for the motor. The temps in Fla. had nothing to do with the rocker breaking. If you think it is the temps put them outside in the sun for 1 hour before using.. Happy holidays to you and the family Phil. Rick

[John Martin]

I got my Dove set up from Guess ford . His thought on a bushing is , you need to remove material to make room for the bushing . I needed an adjustable push rod to get the size right . George runs his dove set up hard .I bring mine up to 6200 once in a while. George had placed my order for Smiths rods .George is a great person .to deal with to.

[priobe]

Rick,

Couple of questions?

1. Is the push rod too long or is it the cup that is too long?
2. If George is the "best" in the industry, and the dove are not, why is he using them. This is what was recommended for my setup from him.

3. I dont mind buying another set of rocker, regardless of what the price may be.

However, I have noticed that once you buy a product and finally get it "dial-in" most companies tend to point the fingers at others.

If the Dove setup works with other with success, I will then work with the Dove.

If the Doves are pieces of $h!t, then lets state this and move on. I spent over a $1000 to now find out all these problems with them.

[SoTxButler]

My 2cents.

1. Buy a new DOVE rocker. 2. Check the others for damage from the long pushrods. If others are damaged, you may want to consider going to something else, but if just one, save your money. 3. Get a new set of pushrods that are the correct length. Many here can guide you through the measuring process, I can't. 4. Put it back together and enjoy your ride.

As you know, George at Gessford has DOVES on his motor. If they were pieces of "s-it", he would be running something else. He certainly buys rockers cheaper than you or I do.

My rockers are 16 years old. Jim Dove built my motor in 1993. His design has changed a little and I have decided I am going to replace these with his new design. That way, everything still fits...no new pushrods, etc.

Anyway, good luck. This kind stuff can drive a man crazy.

[patrickt]

Phil, I run Ersons so I have no personal experience with Dove. But I did remember this thread from just a few weeks ago on the FordFE forum. Does this sound similar to what you're seeing on yours?

[Jerry Clayton]

With shaft and stand rocker set ups you need to adjust the stands to get the geometry to match your valve lengths and then get pushrods-----you use different length pushrods to set the geo on stud mounted rockers as the pivot point moves up and down with the pushrod length where as with the stand/shaft setups you need to move the pivot point by the stand height

[RICK LAKE]

Priobe Phil Looking at your pictures, IMO the pushrod is too long causing the possible rubbing of the rocker arm. I think you said you where cranking the motor over to start and this happened, Yes , No, Maybe?? any way there are 2 different size cups, 5/16" and 3/8" same with the lifter end, 5/16" balls and 3/8" ball. Lengths of pushrods with stock setups I have 5 different lengths. There are alot of variables here.
I run a 5/16" ball and 3/8" cup on custom length Smith brothers push rods. I know Gessford and George and Neil. They are big fans of running solid lifter camshafts in there motors. They also know the limits of these parts better than most anyone else. Kuntz and KCR would be the other 2 shops here on this forum.
My first set of Doves had an oiling issue with My 452 Shelby motor. Aluminum wear on the bottom of the rocker arms. I was running a 501-533 lifter hydro camshaft with the stock springs that came on the Shelby heads. I don't think the spring had over 425 of open pressure. I never tested them. I was told to try this to see if it helped the problem, cut a .030" groove in the center of the rocker body to help with oiling problem, It helped but from the rubbing issues of the aluminum on a steel shaft the rockers got out of round on the shafts. .003" is not alot be enought to cause rocker failure and have them break. This was the standard Dove units. I ran standard pushrods from Ford
The second set was the Heavyduty ones with heavy duty shafts and FFP end stands for more support. Still running the same camshaft. I did take the time to get the right length pushrods from Smith brothers. I also shimmed the stands to get the correct hieght on all 4 from end to end. Machine shim metal strips of .005" -.020". I ran the motor for 2 years this way and had no problems until The shaft snapped between 7 & 8 cylinders. Ripped out the top of the port and the helicoil had come loose, rockers had also chewed up on the shaft. There where no limiters in the heads and had plenty of oil for the heads. IMO relying on a film of oil at a low pressure area will over time cause a wearing problem. You have to remember that just because you have 60psi of oil pressure on the gauge doesn't mean that the rockers are getting 60 psi. More like 1/2 or less depending on clearances of the bottom end of the motor. between 20-30 psi is a good guess. Here is the points,
First I am not a fan of solid lifters, even rollers with pressurized oil for a street car.
second I don't like anything in my motor than has a hot or cold clearance that is not .000" Air gaps between pushrods,rockers, and lifters cause hammering, kind of looks like what is in your pictures. I wonder who's valves those are in your motor. I have not seen a set of Ferria( not sure on the spelling) valve get that kind of wear pattern with low milage. The oil if sprayed in the correct location acts as a cushion to slow down metal on metal hitting, Over the long haul, either the valve stem end, rocker arm roller, pushrod ends or the lifter is going to get hammered and wear out once the harden surface is compermized.
You can point the finger at everyone, starting with your self, How many times did you check and set the valve lash? Your engine assemblier who didn't check to see how close the clearance was between pushrod and rocker location. Was the valve drive geometery of centering the rocker done or just winging it? IMO Dove has a weak design of rocker arms at a 1.75 ratio. They sell 1.5 and 1.6 ratio that doesn't stress out the parts as bad as 1.75 and up. I have no luck, and have to over build everything I run. I have run Ersons for 3 years, next motor is getting T&D. Next motor will be about 650 ft of torque, 100 more than any normal cobra needs. This motor will also have 2 things, Gessford Build and the top of the line parts. Harlan Sharps would be the only other rocker setup I might have used from all the others with the 4 bolt setup. In time this will pass and the problem will be solved.
Phil there have been alot of threads on Dove parts over the years, I had problems with them and getting an intake manifold for 10 months and 2 trips to visit. If Dove stands behind there product, send them back and they should be covered for a manufacturing issue. If not you may want to look in another direction. Any part on these motors can be broken, snapped, split, etc, is abused enough or the wrong setup is done dueing building and assembly work. You are upset, Talk to Dove. If they cover for the rocker damage and give you new parts keep running them if you like. Me I would hang them on the wall for a STOCK motor build and go to Erson. I have 1 set hanging on the wall, learn by failures. Rick L.

[priobe]

Ok here is an update.

Not sure why others have eye brow imprints on the bottom of the rocker but here is what I found.

When installing the rocker the adjustment screw is pulled all the way back off the push rod. When installing the rocker assembly this will push the pushrods into the bottom of the rocker.

Every rocker has 3 to 2 turns of thread. When flipping the rockers over there is no way the pushrod cup can come into contact with the bottom of the rocker.

Now, according to Dove, the rockers should have 30 -40 thou clearance. After measuring it doe not seem it had this clearance on the side clearance. This may have been a factor to the breaking of the rocker arm.

I have some wear marks on the shafts for the rockers, Dove mentioned that this can possibly be polished up with Crocus cloth. If not I would need to purchase new shafts.

I will need to inspect the rockers to see if there is wear also.


Now, if I change the complete set. What rockers can I use with out altering my heads?

And are the Doves' that bad to not reinvest money to correct the findings.

My pushrods measure up at 8.926. After speaking with George at Gessord he said they are pretty short at that measurment.

Spoke to Smith brothers and they walked me though the measurement process and 8.926 is the correct length.

[RICK LAKE]

proibe Phil 3 choices, the rockers look like new, send them back to Dove and see if they will stand behind their product, I see no wear problem on the side of the bodies that the side clearance was not enough. These rockers are going to move around to center on the rocker adjuster is possible. They are going to move around to try and center on the center of the valve stem.
3 choices
send back to dove, POLISH shafts, make sure you have good oiling to the heads. and try again with Dove
#2 remove the rockers and install stock steel rockers on the shafts you have and don't worry about the last 2-3 hp you might loose between the different.
#3 Call Brent B and buy a set of Ersons from him, KCR, E-Bay, or Doug. Who every gives the best price. Sell the doves or hang them on the wall.
If you go with line 1 or 2, take the time and make sure that every thing is flush and square on the heads.
Ersons are a bolt on system and may only need a little machine work on the end mounts, depending on what you have to hold the heads to the block. Head bolts no problem, head studs and nuts like ARP, trim a little on the bases of the rocker assembly for a flush fit. You have $40+k in the car what is another $725.00. Happy holidays Rick

[priobe]

Rick,

I am moving toward polishing the shafts since there is minimum marks and ordered a new rocker.

If I have any problems with these rockers again, I will order the Ersons. I was ready to pull the trigger on the Erson rockers but would like to do more research.

Everytime I close my eyes and buy something, I end up throwing money away (nothing personal).

P.s I am running head studs.

[afret]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...setup+handle+-

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by priobe

Now, if I change the complete set. What rockers can I use with out altering my heads?

With your cam, Ersons, Precision OP's or Harland Sharps. I have had HS's on my original iron Medium Risers and now the same set are on my Shelby aluminums. Since 1991, to 7000RPM. Springs are 120/360. Dove billet shafts, FPP billet stands (all) and spacers , ARP studs.

No alterations required.

[Rick Parker]

Give some thought to the zinc content in your oil.............It might be a contributing factor.

[SoTxButler]

Priobe, I think you have made the right decision. If you take care of the pushrod issue, I think you will be OK.

If you ever change, check out www.garrettmachine.com. He has billet rockers that will replace your DOVES and let you use your DOVE stands, which most agree are pretty good. If you want to buy the very best, his home page has the DOVE replacement and then look under his Products section where he has what might be the best shaft mount FE rocker system I have ever seen. His stuff is not cheap...the rockers are about $1,000 and the whole system is about $1450. They sure look strong though. He says they can handle 800lb pressures.

Good luck with your motor.

[priobe]

Thanks SoTxButler,

Is anyone using these rockers. I am serioursly considering buying a set. I have called several pushrod companys to have them walk me through the setup pf the pushrod.

All, have said that they like to use 2 -3 threads at the bottom of the rocker. Some will take a wire and place it in the oil hole to see the direct spray of the oil to the cup.

After measuring and measureing there is only 1 adjustment that can be made with the Dove rockers side to side or pushrod.

The pushrod is the correct length and can not bottom out on the bottom of the rocker.

Rick,
I believe you are right. The Dove rockers can not hold the pressure that the the springs have.


I wouldlike to find out if anyone is using the Garrett rockers and have any complaints.

I have to admit, I am a little doubtful spending $900 with a company that is not popular and that does not answer their phone all the time. This is why I am reaching to you guys to see if anyone has used them before I make my purchase.

[Eljaro]

When I got the new shortblock from keithcraft and got to install the rocker shaft I did come into problems.
This is what I wrote keith:

Dear Keith,

I was trying to adjust the valvetrain today, and have noticed that the pushrods you sent me (Smith Brothers NH34A-EB) are too long and that I can not adjust them properly because they do touch the rocker body even when the set screw is all the way turned out. So the pushrods are allways under preload. I can not raise the Dove rocker arm assy because it allready touches the valve cover at both ends, needing some grinding down.
The only solution is to use shorter pushrods, something like 1/8 to 1/4 less.
The pushrods you did send me are unused so I can send them back to have them changed against some shorter ones.

Keith did send me 0.250 shorter pushrods and all was well. For some reason the "correct" pushrod lenth is not correct and at least with the bulky aluminum rockers a shorter pushrod is the way to go.
I believe that this is one of the main issues when aluminum rockers break.

[Anthony]

Has anybody used these stainless steel rocker arm assemblies ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-...Q5fAccessories

[priobe]

ok question.

Let me take this back to basic (at least for me).

RIck or any one else out there.

I put the Dove assembly back together after cleaning up the shafts and rockers. I placed the rockers assembly on the heads.

Question #1
When mounting the rocker arm assembly, with the adjustment screws all the way pulled back, should the stands be resting (flush) on the heads. Or should you have a .125 (1/8) inch gap on a couple of stands.

Question #2

If the camshaft lope is up, the pushrod is up, the adjustment screw fully lossen, should you have clearance on the rocker. Or is this normal.

[Eljaro]

yes, there has to be a gap since some lifters are always up. You always have to push some valves open when installing the rocker shaft. It is normal.
What you have to check is that when the rocker stands are bolted all in, you should have only the allen screw head sticking out on top of the rocker when it is screwed all in and touching the pushrod on a closed valve. If you have more than 2 threads out your pushrods are probably too long.