Discolored FE pushrods

[Dominik]

Good morning!

There is a very experienced guy in germany (Ralph) who pushed his RAM with 428FE to low 10 second times in street setup frequently. His english is good enough to order parts, but probably not to help sort the problem.

If you have someone speaking german, it may be worth your while to call him. Let me know and I pm his number.

Or go to his website http://www.cobracorner.de/index2.php

[Barry_R]

The FE is one of only a few V8 engines that has a pressurized oil passage feeding through the cylinder head deck. That is why I personally prefer the "normal" Fel-Pro 1020 head gaskets over the Cometic MLS steel or copper options on any but the most radical applications. The traditional composite gaskets are much better at fluid sealing.

[RICK LAKE]

Eljaro These SCE gaskets are similar to what we used 30+ years ago on track cars. The different was high compression and motor tear down after every race. We also used "O" ring blocks and heads. IMO these are still racing head gaskets. They need to be torque until there is no more tightening of the fastener. This also must be done when the motor is cold. We paint marked the nut and studs to check adjustments. Here's the thing, these are still a solid gasket with a compression ring between sheets of gasket. Copper will compress but will not expand as well. This is the reason for copper sealer from Pematex to be sprayed on some gaskets like exhaust because of heat temps. We used red hightac on all head gaskets as I still use 30+ years later. You will not lose compression in the motor for a while but down the road these gaskets will start to fail. We never used them in street motors. The heat cycles are going to take there toll.
You really need to find out where the oil is seeping from. My feeling is that the silicone on the gaskets is not thick enought to stop the oil or coolant from seeping over heat cycles of the motor. If the surface is too smooth you will have a sealing problem too. I doubt that your machinist polished the surfaces of the heads or block.
They sell a kit for about $40.00 that comes with a dye in it for finding leaks under a black light. Works great for external leaks. You add the dye to the oil or coolant depending on what is leaking, road test for 5-20 miles. and use the light to find the leak. IMO and after beating on my 452 motor for 7+ years and running 1020 felpro gaskets I have had no failures. They where torqued 1 time on assembly that that was it. My motor does have larger studs and nut with larger heavy washers to give better clamping power of the gasket. The gaskets are also sprayed with high-tac and allowed to dry. I do 2 light coats. The one small issue is the gaskets bleed the first couple of heat cycles. after that the problem is gone. I have 5 years on the 482 motor with a cheap set of Mr. Gasket head gaskets, they have felpro stamped on them along with 1020 embossed in the surface. Paided $30.00 for the kit. Here's the thing, that motor doesn't know if it is running $200.00 head gaskets or $30.00 gaskets. The issue is about sealing 2 surfaces togeather and having no leaks. The material differents is huge between the 2. Without the added sealer applied to the surface of the gaskets from SCE you are going to have leaks over time. To help a coolant leak I would add Del/cool ( the orange stuff from GM or Ford) It come with alot of silicone in it for sealing aluminum motors for long periods of time. GM also made a suppliment coolant tablets for Caddie motors to help seal small leaks. This is for COOLANT LEAKS ONLY. Oil is a whole different liquid. A sprayon sealer or thin coat of RTV (gray) and let skin is the only way to control an oil leak around the oil return holes ONLY, without running external drains from the heads to the block or a dry sump system. I don't do this because of the compression different between RTV and spray on Hightac. Only a machine can get a 1/32" bead for a perfect seal. My hands and eyes are not that great any more. Rick L.

[Eljaro]

The oil dripping from the engine where the head meets the block is getting too much now.The whole block is oiled now and a real pain to keep clean.
I guess the SCE Titan copper are not sealing around the oil hole or the oil return line.
Salution? Dump the SCE gaskets and go back to Felpro? Like Rick said, these gaskest are probably good for racing where engines are torn apart after every race but not for everyday driving.
I have retorqued the heads to 100 Ft/lbs but oil still drips.
I guess there is no way around taking the heads off again and dropping in some felpros. I had cooland leak issues with the felpros (before machining the heads flat)and now I have oil leaks with the SCE.
Is there anything to try before going through a head gasket swap?

[ERA Chas]

While the heads are off I would have them crack tested. Especially in the oil drain corners.

[ted]

While your Edelbrock heads are off the engine, this is a good time to cut some slots at the bottom of the lower side valve cover bolt bosses. This will keep the oil from pooling between those two bosses and forcing a valve cover leak that would be there otherwise.

[undy]

Also have them checked for straightness while you're at it and go for the Felpros.

[RICK LAKE]

Eljaro I will send a letter on doing this between snow storms. How much did they remove from the heads?? the angles could be getting out of spec with head and block cuts. The intake may also need to be trimed or the block on both side of the lifter valley ends. Did you spray the SCE gaskets with Hi-tac or copper sealer and let them dry? The other thing was putting a thin coat of GREY rtv around any water jacket port and any bolt that goes into a coolany jacket hole. As far a oil, you want the valve springs flooded in oil. The max the oil level will be is to where the pushroll tube holes are in the intake manifold. This is #1 reason for adding a extra quart of oil to the motor. The weight of the oil also effects the return speed to the oil pan. Talk to you later. Rick L.

[priobe]

Rick,
Just of curiosity, how much oil should be in a a FE motor with:
Avid oil pan / Armando oil pan
1 filter
with and with out oil cooler

I am run 9 to 10 qts is this correct ?

Only asking cause you mentioned that why the extra qt of oil is for?

[Eljaro]

Rick,
I installed the SCE Titan gasket dry, as per Mfg instructions.
I believe that the oil leaks out where the oil return opening on the head meets the block, finding its way out around the silicon beads along the outer edge. Anyway, the heads are going to come off one of these days and I will see what is happening. I'll try to have a set of Felpro 1020 at hand when I do that, in case I have to dump the SCE Titans.(which claim to be reusable).
When I had the heads shaved they took off 0.020", and the SCE gasket installed is 0.061 instead of the usual 0.040 compressed thicknes to make up for that. Felpro does not have a 0.060 thick gasket. Only Cometic can make them as far as I have seen. Dont't know it those 20 thou make much difference. From the compression calculator compression would go from 9.8 to 10.2.
I did fill some more oil , about a quart more , into the engine and had incredible oil smoke comming out off the exhaust at idle, which dissappeared when revs would go up. At a certain point it stopped smoking, , and that was when the oil level reached the upper full mark on the oil dipstick.
The car ran fine, compression very good, no water leaks,
It is just a big PITA taking all the Weber setup off and getting those lower rear head nuts off.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Eljaro

I believe that the oil leaks out where the oil return opening on the head meets the block, ...

...which is more reason to crack test the heads as I suggested above. "Especially in the oil drain corners."

[RICK LAKE]

priobe I over fill the race motor about 1.5 quarts over full. This is to the bottom of the windage tray. Here are MY reasons,
#1 FE motors have poor oil returns without the rocker shield that you get with stock motors. I don't run shields. I flood my heads with oil to the bottom of the pushrod holes. The valve spring generate alot of heat when racing. This oil cools them better that a light mist or very little fluid at the bottom of the spring. I also run a HVHP oil pump with a 100# spring. Cold the motor pressure is 135-138 at idle and hot off the track is 65-80 depending on how hot the day is. My car spends 95% of the time at the track. I either autocross or road race. Both at hard on motors if you are racing and turning high "G" turns for short and worse long turns. The oil can't return to the oil pan. A also have a 3 quart accusump that works as a preoiler and pressure controller to help maintain good oil pressure on high long "G" turns. Dry sump system is the way to go but I don't have the money to do a complete system at this time. I have found no bad effect of the extra oil hurting the motor to date. I do run a canton windage tray. I like this over the solid one but it doesn't do the same to keep oil from hitting the crank or being pull up out of the pan. With the high skirts the FE block has, a windage tray is not that important like on other motors to keep the oil from sucking into the crank. FE crank is high in the block. The solid one a ran caused some longer time for oil to return to the oil pan. I had 15-20 psi at Gateway's road course. This means that there is no to very little oil going to the rocker arms. I know because I could hear them ticking. The accusump stopped this noise and raised the oil pressure to between 35 and 40 psi. For my oil level in the motor I installed the windage tray and filled the oil pan with oil until the level reached the tray. I measure the dipstick length and cut it and marked it to the same height if the pan was on. The only thing a get is a small rear main seal leak after hard running. The rear seal is rope and it need to be kept lubed.
I am not a pro builder, pro racer, or machinist. I do have over 30 + years of working on alot of different motors and apply this to my motors. I also know the limits of my motors and stay in the safe zone. I $13.00 trophy is not worth spilling a $20K motor all over the track. I am there for the fun. If you are running 95% on the street, you don't need to run 100 psi pressures, HOWEVER, IMO running a 60# spring on an FE original motor with FE bottom end and .003" clearances I wouldn't do. I think that #80 is a safe number. I will tell you that running HP oilpumps is hard on the gears of the distributor and camshaft. I have a little extra oiling going to the location. The correct end play of the camshaft is also important to keep gears meeting smooth and not shaving off either gear. I have run the 452 motor for 8 years and now run the 482 motor going on 8 years. Basic maintainance and common sense are the best things. Motor don't live without oil and some motors like the FE need more pressures than others. Small rod bearings and heavy bottom ends. I check bearings #4 & #8 after every year. Barry R stroker kit was dead on for clearances and with preoiling there is no real wear. This is also a BBC bottom end with rods, wider bearing. Rick L.

[Ant]

Is the Felpro gasket issue just an FE problem or does that apply the current stock of Felpro gaskets for other engines and 351w?
My engine was fitted with Felpro in mid 2005 and it hasnt moved in the car yet.

[RICK LAKE]

Ant The only time I had a problem with gaskets was matching aluminum heads to iron blocks. The expansion rates are different. Over a couple of years the seep between head and block. As far as Head gaskets on the same material of either iron or aluminum, I spray them with 2 coats of Hi-tac and have had no leaks. This applys for intake gaskets too, and a thin coat of RTV sealer around the coolant ports both sides of the gasket. I scuff up the gaskets to remove the coating of whatever that is on the gaskets you get to give a better material for the sealer to bond to. The other thing is to make sure that if the block ,heads, or intake where machined to true the surfaces, make sure about clearance and angles between parts. Some machinist IMO take off way too much material to get a true flat surface. Your motor is a living breathing thing and is going to move and adjust over time. Except for a little bleeding of the hi-tac out of the head gaskets, I have no leaks. Ran 8 years on 452 and now 7 years on 482. Same block, heads, intake manifold and water pump. Setup and prep is the most time used when putting a motor togeather. Following sealer time to cure is another thing that is not followed alot of time. I have cheated and warmed a motor to quick cure the RTV but have had small leaks down the road. 24 hours to set means 24, it's that simple. I have an AMC motor with a set of felpros in my jeep that has not been running since 78. Motor was oil fogger and put away. There is no reason that the gaskets should be any problem. After next cobra motor is built, going to install 390 amx motor in CJ-5 or may go with 482 motor. Rick L.

[Ant]

Rick,

Having the same material as my engine is all alloy is an advantage, I have seen some people use a truck style water heater which helps against wear and tear.
My oil tank will have a heater installed to heat the oil dont think I will bother with the water heater. KC did mention once I do a few miles to recheck the heat torque!