Aftermarket Aluminum FE Blocks

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Here's a dumb somewhat related question. Won't the bronze distributor gear for roller cams wear out and potentially ruin any block, if not checked? Not that replacing a bronze distributor gear is surgery for an aluminum FE, but it would seem that a failure could ultimately reduce the chance of a "high mileage" aluminum FE.

Bronze gears are "self-sacrificing" with your roller cam. They need to be changed out every so often, but that's not a big deal. I'm pretty sure most of the builders switched over to the Poly-Composite Gears years ago, which last much longer. If you have a PC gear in your FE, it will probably last the life of your car while you are driving it. Now, that's not true for Rick Lake, but I think it would be for you. But marking and pulling the distributor and eyeballing the gear next to a brand new one that you have in your hand is not a difficult job. It's just one bolt, and less than a half-hour total. If you do have to actually replace the gear have your machine shop do it for you. As I recall, you have the MSD billet distributor and I'm pretty sure that MSD puts an extra-fat pin in there as well. If I'm wrong on that, I'm sure I'll get corrected....

EDIT -- And "No," a stripped gear, or broken pin, doesn't usually result in the engine getting ruined. The engine stops and your natural instinct is to throw in the clutch and coast over. There is usually no damage.

[RICK LAKE]

RodKnock A bronze gear is designed to wear out on a roller camshaft DEPENDING on a couple of things
#1 endplay on the distributor shaft
#2 what oilpump you are running and if it's a HP or HV or both. Standard pump is the easies to drive unless its blue printed, coated and the gears ride on bearings. There are also 2 different types of pumps Geo gear pump and straight gear pump. I have not seen a test on which one causes less wear and stress on the distributor gear and shaft.
#3 End play of the camshaft will prewear out the distributor gear if to much
#4 No oil in the gear to gear contact location Dry on Dry. Some motors have an oil sparyer setup to help this, and not rely on splash or mist in the block.
#5 The hole in the motor block being centered to the camshaft bore, this helps keep everything at a 90 degree angle or a little less because of drive rotation. Some guys also use a bearing here for the distributor to ride on.
#6 Spring pressures and camshaft profile on the lift also help increase wear.
Rod as far as the poly gear I have, it's only got about 30 hours of motor race time on it and I have added oiling to this location to help control wear on the gear. I also have to be careful with leeting the motor warn up on it's own before doing any thing. Cold pressure on a hot track day is in the 110-120 psi on startup. It gets to 130 on cooler days. I am pushing that gear hard. So far there is no wear on the gear. You can just start to see a little( and I mean little contact point) on the gear. This is with a crane hydro roller camshaft. I do limit my motor to 6,200 rpms also Max is 6,500 rpm. IMO these are the max long term rpms for longer life of any motor but an overhead cam one. I don't know how long this gear will last, but have done everything I can to extend the life of this part except for the torington bearing for it to ride on.
I have one suggestion, I you have MSD igntion system in the car, BUY a complete spare setup and carry it with you in a bag and the basic tools you need to repair it. Mostly I see the carbon center burn or fall out of the cap. Sometimes see a hole in the center of the rotor. All this is easy to fix on the side of the road. once the motor cools off. Hand soap or gloves also throw into the bag. Just remember where the rotor was pointing and the housing was positioned. It will not be perfect but will get you home instead of on the hook or rollback. I have seen a few frontends get chewwed up from being put on roll backs. Rod on a side note, I think you need to stop getting crazy over how many miles the motor lasts without being rebuilt. It's 90% on how you drive and abuse the car, just like the brakes,tires, and clutch. All wear out items to protect the most expensive parts. Motor, trans, rearend, and your wallet.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

RodKnock ... BUY a complete spare setup and carry it with you in a bag and the basic tools you need to repair it. ... All this is easy to fix on the side of the road. once the motor cools off. Hand soap or gloves also throw into the bag. Just remember where the rotor was pointing and the housing was positioned. It will not be perfect but will get you home instead of on the hook or rollback.

The day RodKnock can pull his distributor by the side of the road, replace any part in it, and then get the car to run is the day I hop a flight to CA and dance buck-naked on the hood of his car with a rose clenched between my teeth.

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The day RodKnock can pull his distributor by the side of the road, replace any part in it, and then get the car to run is the day I hop a flight to CA and dance buck-naked on the hood of his car with a rose clenched between my teeth.

I might even pay to see that...well maybe not.

[undy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The day RodKnock can pull his distributor by the side of the road, replace any part in it, and then get the car to run is the day I hop a flight to CA and dance buck-naked on the hood of his car with a rose clenched between my teeth.

Now if that ain't a visual, TMI at it's finest..

[RICK LAKE]

Patrickt Pat you have little FAITH in people. It must be from being an officer of the courts and seeing what you see for so long.

Rodknock, I got $20.00 on you. As far as Pat dancing on your hood, ONly if he is going to repair the hood cracks and paint from the DANCE. By the way, I DON'T want to see the pictures. Rick L. Ps Rod if you played with an erector set you can do a distributor swap.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Patrickt Pat you have little FAITH in people. It must be from being an officer of the courts and seeing what you see for so long.

Rodknock, I got $20.00 on you. As far as Pat dancing on your hood, ONly if he is going to repair the hood cracks and paint from the DANCE. By the way, I DON'T want to see the pictures. Rick L. Ps Rod if you played with an erector set you can do a distributor swap.

Rodknocks hood is painted? I always thought he had polished it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The day RodKnock can pull his distributor by the side of the road, replace any part in it, and then get the car to run is the day I hop a flight to CA and dance buck-naked on the hood of his car with a rose clenched between my teeth.

Well, first, I would never allow anyone to dance on my hood, buck-naked or not. Second, Patrick is right. The probability of me, being able to replace my distributor and the Digital 6 on the side of the road is so infinitesimally small, that you may see pigs fly first. A man has to know he own limitations.

Rick, I'm not obsessing over the mileage of an aluminum block, but seeing if I can prove or refute the theory brought up by someone over on the SAAC Forum.

Thank you for your thoughtful response on the distributor gear. It seems to me that there are so many other variables besides the mere fact that a block is aluminum where the mileage may never reach this 8,000-10,000 figure before an engine needs some sort of "open surgery."

[PANAVIA]

Originally Posted by Woodz428

I might even pay to see that...well maybe not.

I will gladly teach him to Field-Strip his FE in 30 seconds.

--in other technical news;

The key to aluminum block success is its consistency to obey the designed specification.

== which requires the correct casting atmospherics and unwavering process.

I had the good fortune to speak with a gentleman who went over to the UK in the early 1980s as a manufacturing consultant.

he found unacceptable humidity levels in their casting area , which lead to porosity in the castings.

The other things found were castings being removed from molds before they were cool.

this lead to core shift or misshapen blocks.

I do think that cottage industry has given us options we thought were gone (new FE blocks) it needs to be tread with caution, and double checking.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Here's a dumb somewhat related question. Won't the bronze distributor gear for roller cams wear out and potentially ruin any block, if not checked? Not that replacing a bronze distributor gear is surgery for an aluminum FE, but it would seem that a failure could ultimately reduce the chance of a "high mileage" aluminum FE.

It could happen...but not as likely as you think. The bronze gear is the sacrifical lamb, asspecially when you add the drag of a mega oil-pump.

Building on what Rick said, that "kit" you want to carry with you for the MSD and bronze gear issues should include the aforementioned cap, rotor and gear. What you'll also want is a small gear puller, some lube, a big damn screwdriver or some other lever to help talk the distributor out of the engine and some beer. You'll want the gear pre-drilled to match the distributor shank hole, and I would advise that both holes be big enough for a Chevy-sized pin rather than the smaller Ford pin (I've had one of those let go).

I was caught at about the 9,000 level in the Sierras a few years ago and had suffered a previous bronze gear failure. Pat Buckley (he of the famous "Buckley Mirror Mounts") prepped the kit since he figured he'd be the one having to deal with it (he was the non-official pit crew for the likes of Turk, U2, myself and other Gasholes). When we all pulled over, we all grabbed our well-stocked tool bags and opened them up so that Pat could pick and choose what he needed while we looked at the beautiful scenary and checked our watches hoping that we'd get to Tahoe in time for the tables. Took Pat about 20 minutes, most of which was taken up while he waited for the motor to cool, and for Tinker to dance around while he donated his finger tip and inserted it into the hot motor in search of its G-Spot (TDC).

This was a solid roller cam. It now sits on a shelf since being replaced by a flat tappet monster, as God and all-things having to do with good and proper manners dictate.

[Jamo]

P.S. No...he did not dance naked on the hood of my car thankusbetogod.

Oh, and I'm beyond the 10,000 mile mark with the Shelby motor built by Boghosian. Other than a POS roller pin letting go on the first solid roller cam (took out the cam, pushrod and lifter...no other problems despite a complete check and replacement of the oil cooler out of extreme caution...all at 3,000 miles). I put the flat tappet in at about 4500 miles when the bronze gear issues continued with the new solid roller, so more than half of its life has been with the flat tappet, with no issues.

I have no qualms about the Shelby block, and I'd take it again over a museum piece.

[RodKnock]

Then, typically, how long should the bronze gear last, assuming one is not racing their FE? As a part of one's yearly or biannual checkup, does one pull the distributor and take a gander at this bronze gear?

Can the bronze gear also "take out" the lower distributor gear and/or bearing, and thereby require carrying a new distributor as well? Does one also carry an extra MSD ignition module too along with the cap, rotor, gear and lube.

I guess I'm asking if I should carry in my tool box and extra of virtually everything.

All these questions are important, because Patrick has publicly stated that he will dance butt-naked on my hood.

[Jamo]

Buckley's lasted over 10,000 miles...BUT, he ran a dry sump with an outside oil pump.

If I was still running a solid roller, I think I would check it at 1,000 miles or so just to see how much wear is going on, and then gauge it from there.

The only way a bronze gear can hurt something else is if it just plain breaks and you have pieces running through the system. Usually, they just wear down to where they no longer grip. When the teeth start getting sharp...time to change it.

The only other extra things I carry are generally electrical, given the original-style wiring on mine...a couple of Lucas horn relays for the lights and fans, inline fuses/good length of wire, and, on long trips...an extra electric fuel pump (I don't run a mechanical).

The specter of a rabid naked ERA-obsessed river-dancing soul can be strong motivation for being reasonably prepared.

Note...two out of two lawyers use flat tappet cams and have told you the same thing about bronze gears. Will you believe us if we bill you?

[Keithc8]

I just ran across this discussion and wanted to say that I have not had anymore problems with aluminum blocks than I have had with cast iron blocks. About the only time I get contacted is when someone has a problem. The only real problem we have had with any of the FE engines is the deal with the Fel-Pro intake gaskets. We have worked with Cometic and Eldebrock to get a better gasket that fits the ports better and will hold up to the new anti-freezes as well as some of the minerals in the water. I can say that 10 years ago we never had this problem but who knows what may have changed with the anti-freeze and or the gaskets.
As far having any problems with the blocks I have not had anyone call with any. I do not know how many miles some of the guys may have on them. We have several that have been out there for at leat five years now. If the block is checked properly and machined right I do not think there should be any real problems.
We have had a few problems with some of the rear main seals but we do not make the blocks or the cranks. We have gotten them to put the grooves in the cranks to help direct the oil back into the engine and away from the rear seal in the last year as well as doing a special double seal set up to try and help this problem.
As with any cast part there can be flaws, cast iron or aluminum so we have seen a few of the blocks with pirosity problems from time to time but we normally catch this with the pressure test that we do. I agree with what was said before about the heat cycle issue being more important than actual miles. If a part is heated to its max or close to it time and time again in a short period of time it will lose some of its strength. We see this with some of the dirt track late model engines we do. They get them up to 230-250 sometimes as well as turning them 9000 rpms and this does hurt the life of the block. With normal use in a Cobra I see no problem getting 100,000 miles out of one if that is what it was built to do. I can see the engines we build out living a lot of the other parts on the car. I will also add this, most of the engines we sell do not get driven like a daily driver car either and we all know that.

Thanks, Keith Craft

[RICK LAKE]

Jamo Ron you also have one of the top FE builders that built your motor. As far as the Distributor, the reason I do a complete swap is if the electronic goes bad inside. It's a lift up and down setup and 1 connection.


The chevy roll pin is also a great idea that alot of guys used. I have seen the smaller MSD pin break in the gear. If the pin breaks easiest way to check with the IGNITION OFF and COIL WIRE PULLED is to try and spin the rotor. If you can turn it more than a 1/4" either way, it could be broken.


IMO the bronze gear is the safer of the other gears for having less damage in the motor. Bronze is softer than iron or steel. If a piece gets into a bearing surface it will do little to no damage to the crankshaft.
If worried about a bronze gear wearing the easy thing to do is after the oil change, drain the filter and cut it open. Look for gold flakes in the folds. They sell filter magnets that stick to the side of the oil filter. You would be surprised to how much micro partials are caught with this thing. Not cheap but whats $40.00 buck more to protect $20-25,000.00 motor. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

If worried about a bronze gear wearing the easy thing to do is after the oil change, drain the filter and cut it open. Look for gold flakes in the folds. They sell filter magnets that stick to the side of the oil filter. You would be surprised to how much micro partials are caught with this thing.

Nothing like one of those "bronze friendly" magnets, huh Rick?

[RICK LAKE]

Patrickt Pat I have recieved P-M's for a couple of guys here and looks like a possible MUMMY party may take place. Location is in VA, the land for lovers. Bandage material and 200 mph tape has been collected. WE are looking for a tester for the party and GUESS WHO'S NAME keeps coming up??? I bet you will look good in a white suit. Have to go, be nice and have a good day, Take the car for a cruise, just watch out for foriegn drivers. Rick L. Ps Yes I know there are no magnets for certain metals. That's why there are filters on the car to caught other crazy partials. Do they make a net big enough for you to be caught in???

[undy]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Patrickt Pat I have recieved P-M's for a couple of guys here and looks like a possible MUMMY party may take place. Location is in VA, the land for lovers. Bandage material and 200 mph tape has been collected. WE are looking for a tester for the party and GUESS WHO'S NAME keeps coming up??? I bet you will look good in a white suit. Have to go, be nice and have a good day, Take the car for a cruise, just watch out for foriegn drivers. Rick L. Ps Yes I know there are no magnets for certain metals. That's why there are filters on the car to caught other crazy partials. Do they make a net big enough for you to be caught in???

Let's keep the bandages loose ... to ensure he stays "not wrapped too tight"..

[PANAVIA]

If you are concerned with *things* in your oil , Bronze , Aluminum, Nikasil, Alusil, Iron steel, etc. -- remember "blackstone" laboratories for oil sniffing.

[fostereast]

Been a while since I've been around, I hope everyone's getting ready for spring rides!

I've been told that the historic problem with aluminum heads, blocks etc. is that the machining requirements are different and if you machine the heads/deck with the same surface finish prescribed in the sixties for cast iron, you were bound to have trouble. Over the years this has obviously been sorted out and with millions of cars using aluminum blocks and heads, durability is certainly possible. Also gasket materials have changed as well.

I think also another consideration is the idea that... when I was a kid, it was no big deal to overheat a Chevy 350 truck motor, we'd just let it cool and would top off the radiator and get going. Never lost a head gasket or warped a head. The first time I was in a foreign car with an aluminum head it blew a head gasket and warped the head the moment it overheated. So I think an aluminum engine block or heads have a more narrowly defined state of robustness with respect to many things when compared to our old Detroit iron engines.

I like cast iron... until you have to pick it up.