Cylinder Head torque

[Tom Cimino]

Ah, the first day of spring and I'm out in the garage with the doors open assembling the top of my stroker.

I'm torquing the heads and I need some info. It's a 390 block with Edelbrock heads, felpro gaskets and ARP head bolts. The engine has a compression ratio of 10.2 to 1.

I'm currently at 90 lb ft. This is the Ford torque spec. for a 390. (63/67 427 is 100 lb ft. I'm assuming that's because of the steel shim gaskets.) Edelbrock calls for 110 lb ft on the top rail and 100 lb ft on the bottom, when lubed with "oil or a suitable thread lube". The ARP bolts are 180,000 bolts and they call for a max of 111 when lubed with 30wt. oil, or a max of 88 lb ft with ARP moly lube, which is what I used. Since I'm at the max torque recommended by ARP, I'm inclined to leave it where it's at. What do you think?

[lovehamr]

ARP knows best what to stress their bolts to. I doubt you need to worry about clamping force at this point.

Steve

[FWB]

are you sure about the 88 ft\lbs, i've had my heads off twice and i have arp 12 pointers on mine and i went to 100 on mine both times

[Tom Cimino]

That's what the chart on the box that the bolts came in and the ARP catalog states. It actually said "recommended torque to achieve optimum preload (clamping force) using ARP Moly assembly lubrication or 30wt oil". I'm sure the bolts could be taken to 100 ft lbs but is it necessary if the optimum preload is achieved at 88 ft lb?

[RICK LAKE]

Tom Cimino Tom Those specs are for mostly iron motors. I don't tighten my heads on either an aluminum headed motor or complete aluminum motor. 75 -80 ft pounds is more than enought for a torque reading, unless you are running 15-1 compression. I am going with you are using 1020 felpro gaskets. Did you spray any kind of sealer on them?? If not that after you run the motor for a couple of heat cycles, retorque the heads to 80 ft pounds. I have studs from ARP on all my motors. The motors with Aluminum heads get about 20% less torque specs because of these things
1 Aluminum expands and retracts more than iron.
2 Aluminum will crush where the bolts are being torqued at.
3 Do you have wide washers to help distribute the torque under the bolts
stud setups come with harden flat washers to help this.
4 if you look at what you typed about 63-67 427 motors, they didn't have aluminum heads back then and if they did where not torqueing them to 100.
5 I have been told by machinist that aluminum expands about .0012" as to where iron is .0006-8" It's a differents.
6 IMO I would rather loose a head gasket from an internal problem like hyroloc than break rods and crankshafts.
IMO don't tighten any more and assembly the motor and break it in. Put some miles on it and JUST recheck the all the bolts for around spec. Like I said, aluminum doesn't need the same torque spec as iron.
Tom my shelby motor is 13 years old and on the second build. All Aluminum. No failures of the gaskets only rocker arm shafts. GM now has a yield to torque numbers as specs for motors with, get this stretch head bolts. torque to 20 pounds and 155 degrees to spec. Works out to about 68 ft pounds. I hope this helps. Stay where you are for now. Recheck in 500 miles.

[Tom Cimino]

Thanks Rick. Having not dealt with aluminum heads before, I needed some guidance. Thanks to everyone else.

[FWB]

i'll agree on the thermal expansion of the steel and aluminum heads are different. i use the felpro 1020's too, you mentioned a sealer on the gasket? like what? being i've had the heads off twice and both times i reinstalled them at 100 ft\lbs. i have the heads off again now, to be reinstalled next week and now i'm questioning this torque spec myself. (long story on why i have pulled the heads so much)
where i agree on the"just recheck the torque", but that is easier said than done with a T&D rocker set up, the girdle covers the head bolts, so its a complete valvetrain disassembly just to recheck torque. the closeness of the cly's on a 427 makes me leary to drop my torque numbers. KC racing recommends the 100 ft\lbs and i lean more on what they say over ARP. i have used iron heads on these motors for 25 plus years but this is the first aluminum head motor.

[RICK LAKE]

FWB As far as a sealer I use spray Hi-Tac on all my motors and head gaskets if it will stick to them. Some head gakets come with silicone film on them and the spray doesn't stick do them. A also use Copper spray on copper gaskets for some motors. I have been told by some of the top engine builders about running aluminum heads on motors and using ARP bolts that are not stretch bolts or studs. I have seen damage to aluminum heads that didn't have washers under the bolt head or nut. Depending on WHO manufactured the head and using what Aluminum and pouring procedure is mostly where this problem came from.
If KCRacing said that 100 pounds is the correct spec, I am not going to get into an arguement with Kieth. Keith makes his living by sell and building motors. I am a double master ASE, GM tech with over 30years of playing with motors. I have only been involved with FE motors for only the last 14 years. I have done a ton of reading and asking questions to machinist that are willing to take time and talk to you. Still some of the best machinist that worked on the FE motors in the 60's thu 70's hide in the shadows and will not exchange their info about tricks of building FE motors. I have over 70 articles of just FE builds. I can only tell you that what works for me and what I have been doing for the last 14 years with an FE motor. If you P-M me about the head issue I might be able to put some light on the problem or talk to one of the pro's and get some help.
I am building a 498 motor next year and have almost all the short block parts. 4.375 crank and 6.7 BBc rods with pistons are heavy. I am one of the few one run HVHP oil pumps with 100# spring for pressure. This is old school, most guys and builder don't believe this is needed. 60 psi for this motor is OK. I think for a street motor with little abuse this is OK. I track my car 98% of the time. 8 years of track racing in autocross and road course my 452 FE had no failures of the bottom end. Rockers shafts was A different story. I have 3 years with the 482 motor, 75-80 psi of pressure. I do check the distrubutor gear and have oiling going to the contact location of the 2 gears. This IMO has helped extend the life of these parts. I also run an Accusump to help as a pre oiler and help help oil pressure up with high "G" turns. New motor will get a dry sump system. Any way Send an e-mail. Rick L.

[FWB]

i just read your previous post referencing a sealer on head gaskets in the same sentence as the 1020 felpro which does have a silicon film on them and i was curious as what it was that could possibly stick to them. you kinda back pedaled now adding if anything would even stick to them. yes i too have used hi-tack and copper spray and even engine enamel on steel shim gaskets. but i had never heard of anyone using anything that actually made sense on the felpro gaskets.
BTW the 100 psi oil pressure i swear by if your using factory rod journals on a FE, along with an extra .001 clearance, but for racing only. just so you don't feel alone...
but back to the head gaskets and torque. so far i have no issues keeping head gaskets sealed on my 10 to 1 comp 427, the torque specs stated, just caught my eye because that wasn't what i was doing and of course inquiring minds want to know...
with the high strength of the ARP's i don't really think it will hurt to torque to 100, and i have never found that they needed retorqing, as they were just where they were torqued when rechecked. so all in all, i will probably just continue putting my head bolts at 100 just like i always do, until i snap one of course....heheheh

[car4jim]

I just retorqued the heads on a Pond block with Edelbrock heads and studs (don't know stud manufacturer). Keithcraft recommended 90 ft-lbs.

[FWB]

Originally Posted by car4jim

I just retorqued the heads on a Pond block with Edelbrock heads and studs (don't know stud manufacturer). Keithcraft recommended 90 ft-lbs.

yeah? i think torque spec is different from aluminum block VS iron block. but hey things change fast.....who knows....

[Barry_R]

Hi Tom

I take all my aluminum head/ARP stud combinations to 90 pounds with ARP lube. I take the bolt combinations to 95 pounds. Fasteners get washed and test fit - if they don't thread in glass smooth they get wire brushed and fiddled with until they do. Washers get lubed and installed under either fastener. Fel-Pro 1020 gaskets go on perfectly dry, installed on surfaces wiped clean with thinner or brake cleaner.

So far I have had exactly two Fel-Pro 1020s fail since they came out - one where the customer was using a factory 427 head that had been milled beyond belief - the deck of the head actually collapsed. The other had a piston tag the head - not sure how he did that since we had at least .040 clearance (free rotation checked with no gasket installed).

[RICK LAKE]

FWB I have found head sets and complete gasket kits at swap meets and buy them for $20.00. The Plastic is yellow and falling apart and the cardboard backing you can't read half the time. Mr Gasket sets have Felpro gaskets in some of them. I have 2 old set left on the wall. These head gaskets don't have the film on them. I know the new ones are covers with RTV around water jackets and film every where else. There is a down side to sealer removeal and cleaning of surfaces. Took over 1 hour using a plastic finger wheel to remove the gasket and old sealer. Have to be careful with the blue wizzer wheel from 3M that is for working on aluminum parts. It will also cut into aluminum real easy.
I would think that if you scratch the film surface this will give the spray some bite to hold on to the gasket. Have not tryed this yet. Just like painting over paint. Rough the surface for primer and let dry, then paint with new color?I would try a sand paper with 220 grit. I think 80 is too much abuse to the surface. Everyone does it a little different, Rick L.

[FWB]

Rick....no you don't tell me it isn't so.......you are recon'ing old head gaskets.......why?
jack benny would be proud.......honestly i would not have the time to dedicate to doctoring up head gaskets, that hour needed to make them work would cost me in excess of 100 bucks, cheaper to buy a set of gaskets.

[RICK LAKE]

FWB I only reuse copper head gaskets. These are only used with "O" ring heads and blocks. The gasket I got from the swap meet are maybe 20 years old.They work just as good as new one's. I know that some guys here are running 40+ year old cranks and rods and are having no problems. Either you are a young guy or have been not been married. If you are you have the same other half and you have not recycled her yet??? I have a very limited extra money for the car and cut and trim corners where I can. I make most of my own gaskets from blank paper gasket material. Hammer,pencil,knife, little time to make. Valve cover gaskets are 14 years old, flip them and reglue, no leaks for a while, then flip again. It works with thick ones, not the thin ones. Not afraid to glue 2 thin ones togeather to use either. I'm not cheap but watch every dollar. Rick L.

[FWB]

young at heart, but remember the kennedy administration hehehehhe, and my wife is married, i'm enslaved......i just like to fix things once, and sometimes trying to save a buck costs me ten. as far as the head gaskets go, re-read your post it sounded like you were recycling felpro gaskets by scuffing up the surface and spraying with copper coat.
thats all, you just wow'ed me by saying that, you left the word copper out of what kind of head gasket you were re-using.....lol