Would you run these in your engine?

[dlotz]

Hey guys

I would like to know if anybody here sees a problem with these exhaust valves and valve guides?

If you were doing a fresh build on a vintage 427FE side oiler, would you accept/instal/run a set of 'restored' vintage MR heads from a shop with these parts in them?

I am not going to mention any names, I am just looking for your opinions

Thanks

[jdean]

No, I would not use any of those in an engine. Are you kidding? Asking for trouble with those cracks, plus valve angles and back-cuts all over the place. Disturbing.

[dlotz]

When I contacted the person who I bought them from this was the reply:

Quote: "Looked at the pictures and I see nothing that would have causaed a problem. I bronze guide liner is what the guide is riding against and the crack would look the same 20,000 miles down the road. I see nothing wrong with the valves that I can see."

"I did those heads myself and know that there is nothing there that will cause a problem." End Quote

[lovehamr]

Hmmm. No reach-around huh?





I know, that was crass wasn't it?

[dlotz]

And actually accused my engine builder of not knowing what he is talking about and claimed that he was trying to get more money out of me to replace valves and guides that, in his opinion, don't need to be replaced and would not be an issue.

Agreed I am not a pro engine builder, but you don't have to be in order to see these issues!

[jdean]

Good to avoid fragments of metal in the combustion chamber. It does not lead to a happy ending. This is not a theory. Ask me how I know.

[Woodz428]

Those would have been junk if FEs hadn't gained so much popularity. I wouldn't trust anything that guy says, he apparently knows nothing about heat expansion...everytime the rockers hit those hot valves they'd split a little more. I would be surprised if they weren't cracked enough already to grab that sweet little bronze liner and stuff it into the port.....just enough to cause the valve to hang open some...maybe enough to touch a piston. What a butt wipe.

[jhv48]

Looks like they ground the valves with a Dremel!

[FWB]

you actually needed a second opinion after seeing those yourself? i've thrown out valves that looked better. the guides would have caused a grenade....

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by FWB

you actually needed a second opinion after seeing those yourself? i've thrown out valves that looked better. the guides would have caused a grenade....

I know these are bad, but aparently the guy that I bought them from doesn't see anything wrong with them. He stated that they looked fine and then proceeded to claim that my engine builder (an acomplished engine masters competitor) doesn't know what he is doing and is only trying to get money from me to replace something that doesn't need to be replaced.

Maybe now he will see from everyones comments that he fell short on his end of the deal and will think twice about his reputation before trying the same thing with another buyer.

I am posting this for everyone to be aware of the fact that just because someone is a supprting forum vendor doesn't always mean a good/safe bet.

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by Woodz428

Those would have been junk if FEs hadn't gained so much popularity. I wouldn't trust anything that guy says, he apparently knows nothing about heat expansion...everytime the rockers hit those hot valves they'd split a little more. I would be surprised if they weren't cracked enough already to grab that sweet little bronze liner and stuff it into the port.....just enough to cause the valve to hang open some...maybe enough to touch a piston. What a butt wipe.

The shop is a pretty big name here on most of the forums. I contacted the seller and they did agree to refund my origional purchase price.

Only issue is that I already had to send the heads back to them twice at a cost of $400 ($300 for additional labor, $135 in total shipping.) Once to repair a small cosmetic crack that I discovered after removing the paint and the second to replace the valve seats that were all at different heights causing the stems to locate all over the place.

It appears the valves were cut down in order to help get all the valve stems close to the same height which was my origional complaint with the valve seats being at different heights.

[Jerry Clayton]

That end of the guide is not the port end but the upper end that is cut for pc seals--it is common for them to split where they are cut down for the seal when someone puts in bronze liners and then expands them--that is what you get with that type repair---keep in mind that the head probably had had pc type seals put on to replace the original umbrells rubber ones, thats why they are cut down--then with more wear, they had the bronze liners installed and then sweged out which causes the cracking---but a pc seal will hole the guide together. The way I do it???? no---but evidently you bought a used set of 45 + years old heads---what did you expect????

The valvesaren't bad for used heads---they are not up to my standards for high performance/racing, but niether are your choice of stock ancient heads.

While your at it, what is the condition of the seats, have they had hardened seats installed??

[dlotz]

[quote=Jerry Clayton;1038359] The way I do it???? no---but evidently you bought a used set of 45 + years old heads---what did you expect????

The valvesaren't bad for used heads---they are not up to my standards for high performance/racing, but niether are your choice of stock ancient heads.
QUOTE]

They were advertised as having brand new valves, springs and valve job. In great condition ready to bolt on and go.

What I expect is to believe a supporting forum vendor when they tell me I would have NO ISSUES with these heads after talking to him over the phone and discussing the rare (and expensive) origional/vintage 427 side-oiler I wanted to put these heads on.

[brobehr]

are you kidding ?
Those are perfect.....




.....for weight stack pins

good riddance !!!!!!

[RICK LAKE]

Dlotz Here is the things I see wrong with the pictures,
If you had new guides install in these 40+year old heads they where hammered in instead of pressed. Maybe air gunned. I have not been pressed guide cracked like this. The clearance to fit could also have been too tight and cracked them. The only important thing is that the guide and valve have the correct clearance and oil gets to this location. The tops of the guides are most of the time dressed up or cut for new seals. I have seen motor with this problem run 150 passes at the track and not fail. Little blue smoke up startup is all. Would I have this in my motor, NO if I sent money for a complete valve job to be done and this was the returned product.
Valves Looks like they where cut down to fit the seats. You said something about having different heights on the valve stems. This is going to happen if valve seats are replaced and have to be machined into the head. Some seats may be installed .060" deeper to find good clean metal for everything to hold and be staked too. The problem is 40+ year old heads and a machinist trying to do the best job with what was giving to him. If you are looking for perfect, buy new parts or spend alot of money for old stock OEM parts you get in a box. The other thing is to go to aluminum heads and remove the logos on them. Paint them and no body will know. I would guess the valve where cut down and ground to try and match your height problem also. You can get caps for the valve stems in different sizes than might have fixed your problem. I would not be happy with the money you spend, BUT there are 3 sides to every story and I have only heard 1/3. If you can get another set of heads, Do that. Have the heads check, If they look OK, install new oil contol seals and maybe HAND lap the valves just a little to reseal the valves to the seats. Make sure the heads are flat and have not been shaved .100". If this is a race motor, BT heads and mill the ends. Rick L. Ps If the machinist had frozen the guides and heated the heads this cracking of the guides wouldn't have happened. Same repair as installing cylinder sleeves in a block. Alot less force is needed.

[lovehamr]

dlotz, unless there are some extenuating circumstances, you got sold crap and then had sunshine blown up your booty. If this person is treating a forum member like this then I say; out him. Let us know so we don't fall down the same open well.

Steve

[Jerry Clayton]

Thanks Rick

However---the guides did not crack from being installed into the heads--they cracked because they had been cut down for pc seals, then bored oversize to install guide liners which were then swedged out to the guide-----if you install lighter(thinner stemmed ) valves there is more material left in the guide tip!!!!!!

The pc seal will hold the top of the guide in place without problems

Now, on the other hand---he could of used a solid bronze guide and not had this problem, however the results of what I see in the pic is the result of many rebuilds---first worn guides, second--bad umbrella seals, third cutting thin guides even smaller for pc seals for 3/8 valve stems, fourth--drilling reaming guide out for bushing , fifth--swedging bushing out to guide

Valve discussion---after repeated rebuilds the valves were getting thin and a few ( at least one in the pic) had been replaced so it was thicker on the bottom----

The quality of the seat install has no supporting pics as well as the remainder of the valves and guides----were these the only three split guides?????

[Woodz428]

[quote=Jerry Clayton;1038423]
The pc seal will hold the top of the guide in place without problems

Valve discussion---after repeated rebuilds the valves were getting thin and a few ( at least one in the pic) had been replaced so it was thicker on the bottom----

[quote]
I agree that the PC seal may have held the top of the guide, but the crack continues far below the seal and would have surely caused oil to get where it shouldn't. The guides also show that they were in the head when it was glassbeaded, so there could be fine glassbead with in that crack. That could manifest itself in many ways.
After I read the valve comments I went back and looked at the pics. I had seen what looked like "pitting" on the face of the valve, probably from moisture over the years...it was the thicker valve, or the least ground...makes me wonder about the ones that were thin.

[dlotz]

Well two weeks have gone buy since I was told that I would be refunded and yet no refund!

[lovehamr]

Again, who is it?