Need help / comments on starter

[Kramer]

Guys,

I have had my car a few years now but only have about 300 miles on it. Today, I took it out and I may have held the key too long when starting it (at least it sounded like it). We all know the sound so I quickly released it..I just couldn't hear over the engine

Well now the started is no longer engaged and the car won't start (unless I pop start it). I can here the starting trying to engage but I think I f'd something up. The engine is a 427 SO and the starter is a powermaster. Where do I start diagnosing the issue and what remedies should I begin first?

Thanks...

Kramer.

[Excaliber]

Well they are a couple of things that could have happened. The Powermaster starters are known to have a weak starter drive and they don't tolerate being messed with. The starter drives are also no repairable, you can't buy that part, have to replace the whole starter. I really don't like Power Master starters because of that. The good news, it's very likely you don't even need a special starter. The OEM Ford starters are really good and work well, even with high compression engines. I was running a Ford OEM starter on my 12.5 to 1 compression ratio 427, no problem. If you suspect the Power Master is bad, just buy the best quality Ford OEM starter from NAPA (50-60 bucks) and try that first, before you drop $250 on another fancy starter you don't really need.

Now another thing that could have happened is the starter ate the teeth on the flywheel. If so, thats real bad news, gotta pull the trans to get to the flywheel to have the ring gear replaced by a machine shop.

From your description it sounds like the starter it TRYING to engage and turn the motor, but the motor don't turn. Most likely you've wiped out the starter gear internal clutch on the starter. The starter gear will FEEL and LOOK fine, on the bench, it will fail when placed under heavy load, like cranking the engine. Thats my best guess!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Well they are a couple of things that could have happened. The Powermaster starters are known to have a weak starter drive and they don't tolerate being messed with. The starter drives are also no repairable, you can't buy that part, have to replace the whole starter. I really don't like Power Master starters because of that. The good news, it's very likely you don't even need a special starter. The OEM Ford starters are really good and work well, even with high compression engines. I was running a Ford OEM starter on my 12.5 to 1 compression ratio 427, no problem. If you suspect the Power Master is bad, just buy the best quality Ford OEM starter from NAPA (50-60 bucks) and try that first, before you drop $250 on another fancy starter you don't really need.

Now another thing that could have happened is the starter ate the teeth on the flywheel. If so, thats real bad news, gotta pull the trans to get to the flywheel to have the ring gear replaced by a machine shop.

From your description it sounds like the starter it TRYING to engage and turn the motor, but the motor don't turn. Most likely you've wiped out the starter gear internal clutch on the starter. The starter gear will FEEL and LOOK fine, on the bench, it will fail when placed under heavy load, like cranking the engine. Thats my best guess!

Here's the problem with rebuilt OEM starters...

All FE starters were not created equal by FORD, even though they all pretty much fit any FE. The critical difference is the starter's windings, both stator and armature. Let's take a 352 and a 427 for instance. They both fit a multitude of applications but the 352's windings are smaller, hence reduced starting torque comparative to the 427's. Once these starter's make it into the various rebuilding arenas they lose their original application identity. The rebuilding process in a lot of cases doesn't replace those windings. So.... when you buy that rebuilt 427 starter chances are you are not getting a rebuilt 427 starter. When you think how many 427s were made compared to the "lesser" FEs the chances of getting the right starter is greatly diminished.

It will be a new gear reduction starter IN ALL CASES for me...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Most likely you've wiped out the starter gear internal clutch on the starter. The starter gear will FEEL and LOOK fine, on the bench, it will fail when placed under heavy load, like cranking the engine. Thats my best guess!

I agree with that. Kramer, to ease your mind that you didn't do anything really serious you can aim your digital camera in through the fork hole and take a few shots. Not seeing any chunks of teeth, metal, etc. at the bottom of the bellhousing will make you feel better.

[Ron61]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I agree with that. Kramer, to ease your mind that you didn't do anything really serious you can aim your digital camera in through the fork hole and take a few shots. Not seeing any chunks of teeth, metal, etc. at the bottom of the bellhousing will make you feel better.

If it ate the teeth off the flywheel, it would sometimes catch as the flywheel isn't going to stop in that exact position every time. If you have an inspection plate on the bottom of your car, take it off and look at the flywheel.

I had a local starter shop build me a gear driven starter and that is all I ever used. Never had a problem and it didn't put a big load on the power system to start the car.

Ron

[rustyBob]

Pull the starter and take it to a LOCAL rebuilder of starters and have them check it out for you ( usually at no charge) if your starter is no good then have them build you a starter and explain to them what you are useing it on and will get a starter that will turn the car over when you turn the key.....thats what i did and my current starter is 9 years old and still works better than any off the shelf starter...
as for the possibility of teeth being gone from the flywheel.....put a socket on the crank bolt and turn it over by hand with a light look through the starter mount hole and inspect your flywheel ring gear to see if the teeth are good.....if you have teeth missing your going to replace the ring gear....if you have a couple that are just chipped on the outer edge then you may be able to clean up the rough edges with a file...if your lucky.

[Bobcat]

Just replaced the CVR starter on my ERA / Ponds 482 about three weeks ago . The problem with the CVR is that it doesn`t have a pinion support . Any side load ( which you will have ) causes the starter gear to try to climb out of the ring gear , which introduces a severe load on the starter shaft , bearings etc ... it broke my starter shaft .
Went with the RobbMc unit with the optional support .... expensive , but what does a new flywheel cost ? Also , Made in America . The unit is actually smaller in diameter then the CVR and easier to install .
My first starter was a Powermaster and that was removed and sent back for warranty as it wouldn`t bolt up correctly ... the bolt holes were off .
I agree with the other guys here ... but remember that you are putting loads on the starter that were never thought of by the designers .

[Excaliber]

Another problem with rebuilt starters is the starter drive itself, they too are not created equal and are often the part that fails first.

Now NAPA has two different "brands" of starters, the standard issue Ford OEM and if you ASK for it, there best and more money, Ford OEM starter. Thats the one I use, the best from NAPA. Maybe I've just been lucky...

[patrickt]

Personally, I like the big old OEM jobs that weigh a ton and break your foot if you drop them on it:

[Michael C Henry]

It's been a while sinse I had an OEM Ford starter. Back in late 60s and early 70s. There were always at least two versions available with standard and heavy duty bendix drives. The cost difference was slight but after having the cheaper standard version bendix drive once and fail, the heavy duty bendix drive was well worth the aditional costs. Not being in the electric starter motor rebuild buisness, I wouldn't know all the ins and outs but I know there are several shops around here that could probably rebuild that starter motor. That starter motor is an assemblage of a bunch of parts, A good retail starter -alterntrer rebuild shop could probably select and obtain better parts and create a much better starter motor.

I didn't know or think about the difference in the amount of windings of the smaller and larger displacement FE engine starter motors. That would be something that would be better handled by going to a local rebuild shop. Auto parts stores are staffed mostly by kids, pushing buttons and handleing boxes. If you have an original large FE starter you'd better stay with rebuilding it. I'm aware of the switch in starter design and and number of teeth change in 66. Would there be different versions between 427s and or 428s? How would you rank them? How would rank the small high torque (gear reduction) starter motors?

[Excaliber]

If you go with a rebuilt make sure it has a NEW starter drive. The rebuilt starter drives are notorius for premature failure and are found in the cheaper rebuilt starters.

As far as I recall, there is no difference in the 427 and 428 starter drive tooth count.

Another thing I didn't like about the "geared starters", like Power Master and others, is the slower cranking speed of the engine. My motor starts up quicker with an OEM starter because it cranks faster. If an OEM is having trouble cranking your motor over it's likely because your base timing is to far advanced.

[Kramer]

I am going to pull the starter in the morning and go with a OEM with a new starter drive...sounds like that is the best option. I will pull it off tomorrow and get into it and let you know what I find. (Patrick...great idea on the camera).

Given that I only did this one time, I am surprised I am having to pull the starter. The car is still new and it only has about 200 miles on it. If anyone has the part number send it on.

Thanks guys, I will update you this week with what I found.

Great news is the car is running great!!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Kramer

If anyone has the part number send it on.

ACDelco 323-217. Click here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/323-2...Q5fAccessories

[patrickt]

OE Parts HQ has it in stock for $45. http://www.oehq.com/acdelco-parts_32...ly%20Reman.htm and they might even give you $13 for the trade in core from that $300 Powermaster.

[Bill Bess]

Sound advice...Patrick