Tired and frustrated with the glycol in oil leak..

[undy]

Nope, HVAC work day... These 105 deg days are tearing me up.

Tomorrow's looking much cooler than last Sunday. I'll be on it like stink, right after breakfast. I'm planning on doing a couple pressure tests, right side of the engine then the left. I've got to jerk the water pump and finish the fabrication of the block-off plates. Nitrogen again will be the medium of choice to pressure test, each side to 20 psi this time. I'll check all connections for tightness and watch to see what the pressure does. Rate of loss (hopefully none) will be compared, right to left.

[patrickt]

Sounds like a plan. Remember the bottom passenger side water pump bolt is in the water jacket too.

[undy]

I bought a pair of sacrificial water pump gaskets and will RTV them well. Some teflon paste will work on the water jacket bolt too.

Will post tomorrow evening about results...

[undy]

The tear-down and saga continues...

The pressure test plates are on and I'm ready to throw the nitrogen to it.

Ernie, Pat & Jamo; I sincerely appologize if I offended anyone with my blantant and somewhat insensitive display of hydraulic roller lifters.. I did it accepting full reponsibility, knowing I may be "lashed" at a later date It shall never grace my avatar



Anyone got a spare Dutch boy laying around?

Well... It looks like the rear head gasket is leaking near the water port. Under coolant pressure I'd get coolant dumping into the intake valley That explains the bit of coolant in the oil. Hmmmmm... wonder what caused it to leak???




Ahhh..... the mystery's solved, NOW WHAT THE HELL DO I DO???

I decided to check the head bolt torque so I set the torque wrench at 85 and hit the bolt directly above the coolant leak. It turned with relative ease, and kept turning ... and turning ... and turning... DARN, a stripped head bolt The rest of the head bolts on both heads are to spec with no other stripped holes.

The other head gasket seeped a bit to, although not as bad as the driver's head gasket.

Soooo..... I guess it's time to yank both heads and have them skim-cut. It'll true them up and give a better gasket surface.

Listen up engine builders and pros! (Rick, Brent, Barry, Keith, George, Tom etc) My questions are;


Can I repair the stripped block head bolt hole, block in car? If so, should I use a heli-coil, time-sert or what??

Am I not getting enough "grab" with the ARP head bolts? Should I switch to studs. If one stripped hole is there others could be close too. I need to be able to pull the heads in the future without yanking the whole motor so, are the head studs easily removable so you can pull the head?

Lastly, I used the regular ol' Failpro 1020s. Is there a better head gasket out ther for an all aluminum motor? Should I be doing something different around the water ports to get it to seal properly? Soooo many questions..

Rick P (and others) you were sort of right about where the leak would be.

Kev, see what I get for being ugly...

[Jerry Clayton]

Well I'm not on the list----

But yes you can repair the threads with the block in the car

Use heli coil--a longer version since its an alum block

If you use helicoils for a repair and later they fail, then you can go to the insert



Never, ever use bolts into an aluminum block--always use studs
and they are removable--arp has allen tips

[lineslinger]

I've been following your "adventure" Undy.... bet your glad to see the bubbles (well, kinda'). Got a lot of respect for your determination and creative thinking in solving your engines leakage problems.
Keep the posts and pictures coming on analysis and repair on the rebuild and good luck with that as well.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

I've been following your "adventure" Undy.... bet your glad to see the bubbles (well, kinda'). Got a lot of respect for your determination and creative thinking in solving your engines leakage problems.
Keep the posts and pictures coming on analysis and repair on the rebuild and good luck with that as well.

X2. Thank for taking the time to photo and write to keep us up. Glad the find can solve the problem but don't know who/how stripped it.

[blykins]

I'd go with a helicoil...and switch to studs. The ARP studs have the hex head in the top so you can use an allen wrench to back them out. The studs will give you 100% thread engagement in the block, something you didn't have with the bolts.

[blykins]

Sorry Jerry....you basically said everything that needed to be said.

[olddog]

I was hoping the porosity in the back of the intake was it.

I'm curious if the head bolt stripped when it was torqued or if it failed sometime after it was torqued. Did you torque the head down or someone else?

When you get it apart, you need to determine if the threads in the block are good. I am assuming that the block had heli-coils from the manufacturer. I would not put another heli-coil in unless the aluminum threads in the block look good. As far as I know there is only one size tap for a heli-coil for a certain size bolt thread.

Check to see how many of the head bolt threads were actually engaged. Was it a short bolt? Did the Heli-coil come all the way up to the top (recessed resulting in not enough threads)?

I agree that studs would be better. High torque on aluminum parts always give me the willies when I pull on a wrench. With studs the threads in the block never get twisted under load.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Well I'm not on the list----

But yes you can repair the threads with the block in the car

Use heli coil--a longer version since its an alum block

If you use helicoils for a repair and later they fail, then you can go to the insert

Never, ever use bolts into an aluminum block--always use studs
and they are removable--arp has allen tips

Thanks Jerry, I figured I could do it in place. I'll locate a longer heli-coil. I also can't remember if the block's already helicoiled. If it is then I believe they make an oversized Heli-coil or a time-sert or ??

I'll also order some studs, pretty much already made up my mind on that one.

Originally Posted by lineslinger

I've been following your "adventure" Undy.... bet your glad to see the bubbles (well, kinda'). Got a lot of respect for your determination and creative thinking in solving your engines leakage problems.
Keep the posts and pictures coming on analysis and repair on the rebuild and good luck with that as well.

Thanks Line, bittersweet to say the least.

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

X2. Thank for taking the time to photo and write to keep us up. Glad the find can solve the problem but don't know who/how stripped it.

Let me say that the only wrench that has ever been on my intake and heads is yours truely. I did the assembly, I alone am responsible.

Originally Posted by blykins

I'd go with a helicoil...and switch to studs. The ARP studs have the hex head in the top so you can use an allen wrench to back them out. The studs will give you 100% thread engagement in the block, something you didn't have with the bolts.

I'd thought the ARPs had the allen head. I should have switched to studs before. I knew better on the intake and made my own studs, the best thing I could have done after stripping a hole or two.

How about head gaskets? Felpro, Cometic or what?? Do you do anything special around the head gasket water ports?

Do you know if the Pond head bolt holes are already heli-coiled? As many time as I've had this apart you'd think I'd remember...

Originally Posted by olddog

I was hoping the porosity in the back of the intake was it.

I'm curious if the head bolt stripped when it was torqued or if it failed sometime after it was torqued. Did you torque the head down or someone else?

When you get it apart, you need to determine if the threads in the block are good. I am assuming that the block had heli-coils from the manufacturer. I would not put another heli-coil in unless the aluminum threads in the block look good. As far as I know there is only one size tap for a heli-coil for a certain size bolt thread.

Check to see how many of the head bolt threads were actually engaged. Was it a short bolt? Did the Heli-coil come all the way up to the top (recessed resulting in not enough threads)?

I agree that studs would be better. High torque on aluminum parts always give me the willies when I pull on a wrench. With studs the threads in the block never get twisted under load.

I personally torqued everything. All head bolts torqued solid to 85 lbft with no undue yield. The threads must have pulled out during operation. When? I don't know. I've had this coolant problem for over a year.

I'll pull the heads next weekend and inspect the block threads.

[undy]

I went out and measured the head bolt hole threaded depth and it's 2" deep. My head bolts only grab 1" of the threaded hole. No wonder one stripped out...

Do they make a 2" long helicoil? If it's already heli-coiled what are my options?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by undy

How about head gaskets? Felpro, Cometic or what?? Do you do anything special around the head gasket water ports?

Dave,
Call Barry R. He has and uses a new style MLS gasket. If he's using it on his customer engines-they must be good.

[FUNFER2]

I have never used these "Time Serts" (a threaded solid steel bushing “not a spiral wound wire” that prevents aluminum from stripping) rather than helicoils, but Blue Thunder uses them. Has anyone experience these before ?

I think, the cost was around $40 per side.

[Excaliber]

Hmmm, I wonder if a stud will work with the existing hole, which may have enough threads left to hold it tight...

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Hmmm, I wonder if a stud will work with the existing hole, which may have enough threads left to hold it tight...

If you go with this approach, use this. It's designed for this kind of repair. http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...ead_Repair.htm

My father has used this successfully on head bolts before and I have used on a pan bolt (granted not much torque on a pan bolt).

[madmaxx]

You have got to be kidding me, no way would I trust this stuff. May last 2 or 3 starts, after enough temp cycles if you can even keep it running that long it will crumble.

Originally Posted by dcdoug

If you go with this approach, use this. It's designed for this kind of repair. http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...ead_Repair.htm

My father has used this successfully on head bolts before and I have used on a pan bolt (granted not much torque on a pan bolt).

[Excaliber]

He's got perhaps an inch of original thread left, plus even the damaged thread area will help with the grip. The torque is only 85 lbs. There is some risk to a insert of any kind of repair, and you get a limited number of times to make such a repair. All things considered, I'd be tempted to give this repair method a shot before I risked getting into a more substantial repair of the block. You could always do an insert in the future if it just didn't hold over time. I'm betting it WILL hold though...

One possible caveat. I have to remove one or two head bolt studs to gain clearance to remove my head with the engine in the car. If thats the case, you have to go with an insert of some kind.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

He's got perhaps an inch of original thread left, plus even the damaged thread area will help with the grip.

How many threads? Did you know that the first thread on a bolt takes a third of the load and the first three threads take 75% of the load? What's more, the first six threads take the entire load. Numbers seven and above are under no load at all. Thus, if you've got six good threads, you have the equivalent of an infinitely long bolt.

[HealeyRick]

Is this a crack?