Tired and frustrated with the glycol in oil leak..

[Excaliber]

Rick, no it's not, we covered that question earlier in the thread, something about a silicone bead track I think it was.

Pat, based on your number of threads to holding power if there is an "inch" of depth (good threads) in that hole a stud and some "glue" would be an adequate repair! Or so I would guess, not being able to see the hole or count the threads. That's Undy's job.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

You have got to be kidding me, no way would I trust this stuff. May last 2 or 3 starts, after enough temp cycles if you can even keep it running that long it will crumble.

It's been 3 years on my father's head bolt and no issues. Like Excalibur, he figured he'd give it a shot and if it didn't work he could go with the coil/insert. Although it's in an iron block/head flathead - not sure what the torque spec was for his heads.

Not sure whether you actually looked at how the stuff works, but here's the crib notes: You spread it around in the hole, put release agent on the bolt, run it down in the hole and it fills any damaged area and forms "new" threads in those areas. Then you take the bolt out and let it harden. It hardens to the equivalent of Grade 5. It's good to 300 degrees. If you have a decent amount of good thread left, this might actually be a solution worth trying.

Anyway, just trying to throw out an alternative.

[Excaliber]

...I was going to use JB Weld, this stuff looks better. But JB Weld is pretty awesome!!

[madmaxx]

I actually attemped to use that stuff once, didn't work, I guess I did not do something right. One thing about cylinder blocks and heads is the thermal cycling, I doubt this has the same coefficient of thermal expansion. Sure it can take 300F but can it take giong back and forth 100's of times.

Usually if a bolt does not pull out during tightening it wont. Reason be when being tightened the threads see both tension and torsion, when tight it only sees tension.


Go to the store and find a nut that fits your stud, if you have than many threads left in the block, you are at 100%. I would pass on the glue, if anything use loctite.

[undy]

That's the ragged edge of the piece of gasket I tore of a intake gasket for the pressure test block-off plate. You can se a similar torn edge for the other side. C'mon guys, give me more credit than that

No way I'm going to throw the chicken bones to see what kind of "glue" I'm going to use on the thread repair. I've got to much time, sweat, blood and $$ tied up in this motor to take a chance like that. After much research and without question, I'll use the BIG-SERT. It's used for failed threads that were repaired or that originally had a heli-coil or similar spiral-wound thread device. The OEMs use them as well as major shops. The TIME/BIG-SERTS carry more load the the heli-coils do and being totally enclosed repeated ins and outs are not a problem. They "lock in" to the hole better too.

Those are my intentions, but... I'm not ordering anything yet, not till I know what I'm up against. I'll yank the heads next Sunday (temperature permitting) for a Monday machine shop drop-off and also do a close thread inspect. I want to take a detailed look-see at a good hole along with the bad one. I also need to see what it's going to take to get the old helicoil out without boogerin' the side wall of the hole up too much. I don't really know at this time how much wall thickness I have either.

http://www.timesert.com/html/bigsert.html

[Barry_R]

Undy - sorry it took so long to see this and respond - I was tangled up with family stuff over the weekend.

You obviously found the problem. Damn.

The Pond block uses a special dedicated head stud kit with longer than normal thread engagement. In this case those are going to be a real help with the marginal thread integrity. You have to get them directly from Pond or a dealer since ARP does not sell them. The lower corner holes on an FE are problematic due to the head dowel recess reducing/lowering the thread position there.

I prefer helicoils myself - I have had timeserts pull out and break. The pulled upper threads will act as a drill guide, although a 1" hunk of aluminum with holes for the pulled bolt and an adjoining one is better - you want to keep those studs straight.

Do it like the surgeons on TV - tape off everything with plastic and just open up the spot you're working on.

I just use Fel-Pro 1020 head gaskets, nothing special. Cometics are good parts but I do not like the fact that they do not have emboss beads around the coolant openings on FEs. That potentially lets coolant migrate across the head and co-mingle with teh oil feed to the rockers.

[Excaliber]

If the studs are Pond/Dove/Shelby specific, I'm surprised they would sell the block without them. Or at least strongly encourage their use. Strange...

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

If the studs are Pond/Dove/Shelby specific, I'm surprised they would sell the block without them. Or at least strongly encourage their use. Strange...

I was never told about them. Yesterday was the first I'd heard that there was such a thing. I'd originally bought just an short block so I never ordered any studs. I'l be calling Pond this morning as soon as they're open for advice, price and availability.

[Excaliber]

That was basically my point Undy, I suspect you WOULD have used them had they advised you to, talked about the issues and such. It just seems like the alloy block companies are doing a dis-service to their customers by not discussing this critical issue.

[scottj]

I had the same thing happen on my first aluminum block. I was not aware that the block used a special stud with 1.75" of thread that bottoms in the hole. The standard stud pulled a chunk of the block out between cylinders. I used the argument that since they included a list of required special components with the block, the studs should have been listed. The Chevrolet Racing dept ended up raplacing the block.

[undy]

Yep, it's the old hind sight thing on the head studs...

I did have a lengthy conversation with Barry this AM. I know it's been said before, he's a great guy with tons of knowledge that has a passion to help fellow FEers... Kudos to you sir!!

It seems that the Pond block's head bolt holes are not heli-coiled, just raw aluminum and are threaded 2" deep (as I'd measured). Barry suggests NOT USING a time/big-sert as the intention of the head studs are to grab the block as deep in the casting as possible. He likes Heli-Coils. The time/big-sert will only grab a max of 1" deep and that's at the top of the hole. Heli-coil does makes a 1/2"-13 insert that's 1 1/2" long that I can bury at the bottom of the existing 2" theaded hole. Since it's not had an insert already I can use a standard diameter heli-coil. I'm starting to get a warm fuzzy about the repair.

The head gaskets... Barry doesn't like the Cometic MLS gaskets for one reason. Cometic fails to install an embossed water passage sealing ring around their head gasket's water ports. The FEs being somewhat unique WRT their oil passages near the water passages this become very important. With his advice I'm tending to lean towards the Felpro 1020s..

BTW... YOU GUYS ROCK! Thanks to all for the wonderful support and advice that was given. It was always considered and sometimes followed More to follow....

Dave

[rustyBob]

so....you went from a leaky intake (maybe).....to a leaking head gasket.....and now you have head bolt threads that have pulled out of the block....talk about bad luck....are studs the way to go to solve this or are you going to take your chances with bolts again? and do you think now that the intake had anything to do with part of this problem or was this all head gasket??

[undy]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

so....you went from a leaky intake (maybe).....to a leaking head gasket.....and now you have head bolt threads that have pulled out of the block....talk about bad luck....are studs the way to go to solve this or are you going to take your chances with bolts again? and do you think now that the intake had anything to do with part of this problem or was this all head gasket??

Yep their block was designed for studs that go all the way down in the threaded 2" holes. Pond has them special made for him by ARP. I am in the process of buying a set now.

The intake probably was fine and the leaking head gasket caused the whole problem. I still have no regrets pressure testing and getting the intake vacuum casting impregnated though...

[rustyBob]

I guess the intake is a "better safe than sorry" thing....
the studs is one of those things that the manufacturer could/should supply with the block when you buy it new.....

[undy]

I'm glad I had the manifold sealed. It has always caused me some concern with repect to leaks. At least that's one thing I can check off the list that I don't have to worry about.

Keith's got me a set of the Pond head studs coming. Brent has some head gaskets, SCE copper header gaskets and misc parts on the way too. I FleaBay'd a 1/2-13 helicoil insert kit and ordered some 1/2 x 13 x 1 1/2" (3D) inserts online. The 1 1/2" long helicoils will give me all the strength I need and allow me to sink the new threads all the way in the bottom of the hole. I want the new hole to grab the stud at the same point down in the block as the other holes.

[Excaliber]

I wonder if the alloy manufacturers don't include the price of the studs because they cost a LOT!! So the "advertised price" for a plain block "looks good". Buyer beware...

I'm reminded of a recent thread by Brent, B2Motorsports about his COMPLETE small block at a certain price (forget what it was). Someone mentioned they could get a Ford Racing small block for less. BUT, B2's motor really is complete, with all the details. Ford Racing will leave you scrambling not only for a ton of additional parts (intake, carb, flywheel, the list is long) but also BOLTS and NUTS and WASHERS and that little stuff that becomes irritating to get together.

But what does a typical consumer see? B2's price is more than Ford Racing price. Well DUH, you get what you pay for!!!

This thread leaves me without a warm and fuzzy feeling toward Pond, I'll tell you that, and I suspect Shelby and Dove play the same game. It aint cool man, someone needs to call 'em on it.

[olddog]

A good engineer told me that a good rule of thumb is "the thread engagement needs to be at least the same length as the diameter of the bolt." In other words, a 1/2" bolt needs a 1/2" of threads engaged. Now that is for steel and course threads.

Aluminum is a very poor metal to put threads into because it slowly creeps over time. Lots of different grades, with some much better than others. The extremely long threads makes sense in aluminum. As the aluminum slowly moves, the load will eventually even out over all the threads.

This explains why the bolt torqued solid, and over time the threads pulled out. What is bothering me is "if one bolt pulled out what do the other ones look like?" Remember you said the other head had a slight leak at the gasket too. Has some of those bolts stretched the threads and are no longer at torque? Could all the holes have the threads stretched.

I hate to be spending your money, but you said you like to overkill everything. Should all the holes get heli-coils put in them?

[Excaliber]

I don't know Olddog, in this case he has potentially a lot of thread left at the bottom of the hole, adding the studs and using all the existing thread should do the trick. Of course I'd repair the hole in question and inspect the others.

My concern with something as important as the block would be to do as little as possible to preserve what I got. There is always the potential for things to get ugly if you heli coil enough of those holes, binding, drilling off just a bit, helicoil sticks and won't thread correctly into the new hole. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I've had a couple of heli coil installation jobs that took a left turn and ended up being a real nightmare. Less is better in my book, which is why I would probably try a chemical fix myself as the first step. Thats a hard call though, yeah, I might go helicoil first time in this case (for ONE hole).

[wetdog]

I have been following your problem and I have to say that you were tenacious enough to keep at it ..sorry you missed some summer driving time but it has to feel great to finally know what caused your milkshake!
During my build I had a few bumps and after I figured them out it was the biggest relief ...mostly my wallet , hang in there and thanks for taking the time to post and take pics WD

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I wonder if the alloy manufacturers don't include the price of the studs because they cost a LOT!! So the "advertised price" for a plain block "looks good". Buyer beware...

I'm reminded of a recent thread by Brent, B2Motorsports about his COMPLETE small block at a certain price (forget what it was). Someone mentioned they could get a Ford Racing small block for less. BUT, B2's motor really is complete, with all the details. Ford Racing will leave you scrambling not only for a ton of additional parts (intake, carb, flywheel, the list is long) but also BOLTS and NUTS and WASHERS and that little stuff that becomes irritating to get together.

But what does a typical consumer see? B2's price is more than Ford Racing price. Well DUH, you get what you pay for!!!

This thread leaves me without a warm and fuzzy feeling toward Pond, I'll tell you that, and I suspect Shelby and Dove play the same game. It aint cool man, someone needs to call 'em on it.

I don't know...

From a cost perspective, if I was building a good iron block side oiler I'd want a set of new head studs to provide me with the virgin clamp I felt I needed. I wouldn't expect the iron block MFR to provide them either. The special 12 point ARP stud kit that Pond has made for them is actually less than 50 bucks more than the run-o-the-mill ARP FE stud kits that Jegs sells.

From a notification perspective, I do think either the MFR, builder or the vendor should notify the customer of the requirement if they are just buying a block, or shortblock.

Originally Posted by olddog

A good engineer told me that a good rule of thumb is "the thread engagement needs to be at least the same length as the diameter of the bolt." In other words, a 1/2" bolt needs a 1/2" of threads engaged. Now that is for steel and course threads.

Aluminum is a very poor metal to put threads into because it slowly creeps over time. Lots of different grades, with some much better than others. The extremely long threads makes sense in aluminum. As the aluminum slowly moves, the load will eventually even out over all the threads.

This explains why the bolt torqued solid, and over time the threads pulled out. What is bothering me is "if one bolt pulled out what do the other ones look like?" Remember you said the other head had a slight leak at the gasket too. Has some of those bolts stretched the threads and are no longer at torque? Could all the holes have the threads stretched.

I hate to be spending your money, but you said you like to overkill everything. Should all the holes get heli-coils put in them?

I hear ya...

When I get the new studs they're going to grab 100% more theads than the bolts did. I checked the torque and they all were still solid, with their original clamp. I will get a "feel" for the threads when I pull the bolts. I will also do a close inspect when I have the heads off. Also, in talking with Robert Pond he recommends running a bottoming tap in every hole. He said I'd thank him during assembly.

Ernie ... What you said.

Originally Posted by wetdog

I have been following your problem and I have to say that you were tenacious enough to keep at it ..sorry you missed some summer driving time but it has to feel great to finally know what caused your milkshake!
During my build I had a few bumps and after I figured them out it was the biggest relief ...mostly my wallet , hang in there and thanks for taking the time to post and take pics WD

Thanks Wetdog

As with everything like this, you never know what kind of curve that'll get thrown at ya. I kept fiddlin' with the intake, focused that it HAD TO BE THE PROBLEM. Everything pointed to it. 1) It was made by Dove 2) The leak started after it's installation. 3) It was pressure tested and repaired (last tear-down) so it had a history. 4) All the planets seemingly aligned..

New motto, if it tests good then maybe it is good ... (for now)