Brad Penn Oil and the ZDDP Debate - Page 6

RodKnock · #**101** (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yep, I would rather buy stuff on line that spend 20 minutes running to the auto store to get it.

BTW, how much "goodwill" did this thread buy me? I'm mulling over some gratuitous attack on SPF, BDR, and FFR. You know, criticize them all simultaneously to create a BFD, if you will....

Between this thread and the LED tail light thread, you're probably set for a few bomb shells. I'm surprised you didn't hop into that interior thread where it almost turned into an FFR versus BDR thread.

Excaliber · #**102** (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 10:12 PM

...did I mention all the dual roll bar cars had a perky butt?

Not thats there's anything wrong with that...

undy · #**103** (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliber

...did I mention all the dual roll bar cars had a perky butt?

Not thats there's anything wrong with that...

Back to the ZDDP discussion...

Speaking about roll bars, with a lill' trick plumbing those roll bars would make a killer "high ZDDP" oil cooler too, double pass...

wfbronson · #**104** (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 07:29 AM

Recently had an amazing experience to prove the value of the original formula Kendal Racing Oil now produced by Brad Penn.

Three years ago I had put this oil in my rebuilt side oiler and pumped the oil through the engine by turning the oil pump drive with an electric drill. This was done with the anticipation that I would not be able to use the motor for a few years, so I sealed it in a crate and stored it in my garage.

Last month I decided to uncrate it, change the oil and circulate it before going any further. I bought some oil from my local auto supplier and proceded to remove the valve covers and inspect the condition of things. When I saw the incredible clean condition and this Kendal oil still sticking to all the parts, I kept the same oil in the motor and just changed the filter and pumped the oil through again.

I refused to put any of this new low quality oil in my side oiler until I could find the original stuff.

ERA Chas · #**105** (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wfbronson

I recommend the original furmula Kendal Racing Oil that is available only from specialty racing suppliers. It is not available on the shelf of your typical retail auto parts store.

Recently had an amazing experience to prove the value of this stuff. Five years ago I had put this oil in my rebuilt side oiler and pumped the oil through the engine by turning the oil pump drive with an electric drill. This was done with the anticipation that I would not be able to use the motor for a few years, so I sealed it in a crate and stored it in my garage.

Last month I decided to uncrate it, change the oil and circulate it before going any further. I bought some oil from my local auto supplier and proceded to remove the valve covers and inspect the condition of things. When I saw the incredible clean condition and this Kendal oil still sticking to all the parts, I kept the same oil in the motor and just changed the filter and pumped the oil through again. I refused to put any of this new low quality oil in my side oiler until I could find the original stuff.

Why are you repeating this post #34 and not replying to my post #39? And which is it-3 years ago or 5 years ago?

RodKnock · #**106** (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Why are you repeating this post #34 and not replying to my post #39? And which is it-3 years ago or 5 years ago?

Because it was an "amazing experience" it bears repeating.

ERA Chas · #**107** (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 03:06 PM

:lol::lol::lol:

Cobra 29 · #**108** (**permalink**) 08-03-2010, 08:16 PM

Patrickt,

I ordered a case of 15-40w from the Oil Warehouse today. They confirmed that their stock of Brad Penn oils was from the revised formula (changed in 2008) with the appropriate levels of zinc (1500ppm) and phosphorus (1400 ppm) for a flat tappet cam. They communicated that they sell a lot of the Brad Penn oils for flat tappet cam motors.

Short of sending some of this new oil to be tested for zinc and phosphorus levels, is there an API specification rating on the product that I should be looking for? From some of the forum contributions, I understand that a rating like SE might provide the appropriate levels of zinc and phosphorus but a rating like SJ or SM would not. Are there specific API ratings we should be looking for to get the prevent appropriate levels of zinc and phosphorus? Does a specific rating guarantee these levels or that the specific rating does not prevent higher levels of zinc and phosphorus (meaning that you need to review the product specifications)?

Dave

patrickt · #**109** (**permalink**) 08-04-2010, 06:09 AM

Dave, I'm pretty sure that the zinc and phos limitations for the API certifications for, say, SM rated oil do not apply to 15w-40 oil (and they don't apply to 20w-50 oil either). So the short answer is that there is probably nothing on the label to look for, other than something like "Resource Conserving," to really scare you off. That's one of the problems with this ZDDP thing and why I posted that letter at the top of this thread. If it's Brad Penn (even the old Brad Penn) it has the ZDDP that you need. Now you could send a sample off to Blackstone Labs who will check it for $25, but be advised that there are reports that some of their results to tend to be on the "low end" of the scale. That letter that I posted gave me a lot of comfort. It essentially said "We know our market is aimed at guys that want high ZDDP levels. That's exactly what we're going to give you. And we're not going to get on board with an oil certification that limits our ability to do just that."

Bob In Ct · #**110** (**permalink**) 08-04-2010, 06:56 AM

If the container has the "Starburst" symbol, the oil has no more than 800 PPM ZDDP.

Bob

speed220mph · #**111** (**permalink**) 08-04-2010, 10:05 AM

I didn't read all of the responses, so forgive me for repeating what may have been said.

I've been using Brad Penn in place of Joe Gibbs oil for a couple of years from breaking in engines on the dyno and using it on the street and track in my three flat-tappet cam engines, a stroked 302, built HP289 and a 427 side oiler. For a backup, I've ZDDP additive from ZDDP Plus Central in other premium oils. Here's their web site: http://zddppluscentral.com/home.

It's improtant to note that the most critical time with a flat-tappet engine is during break-in. I know of many engines that have wiped out their cams during this intial running period, or break-in and the first 500 miles. I've heard it said that you can "get by" without the correct amount of ZDDP in the engine oil once fully broken in, but I don't put this off to chance considering the consequences.

madmaxx · #**112** (**permalink**) 08-04-2010, 10:10 AM

if you like to use zddp additive, use the redline additive. One bottle is good for two oil 8 quart oil changes $13.95, summit and Jegs sale so if you are ordering other stuff you just pay one shipping and handleing fee.

SantaFe66 · #**113** (**permalink**) 08-05-2010, 08:36 PM

Here's the content of ZDDP and Phos. in Amsoil:

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Phosphorus Zinc Level
Level (ppm) (ppm)
AMO 10W-40 Synthetic
Premium Protection Motor Oil 1265 1378

ARO 20W-50 Synthetic
Premium Protection Motor Oil 1266 1379

HDD Series 3000 Synthetic
5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil 1266 1379

AME 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy
Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil 1267 1377

AMSOIL Synthetic Racing Oils Phosphorus Zinc Level
Level (ppm) (ppm)
RD20 Dominator Synthetic
Racing Oil 5W-20 1424 1575

RD30 Dominator Synthetic
Racing Oil 10W-30 1424 1575

RD50 Dominator Synthetic

Racing Oil 15W-50 1424 1575
AHR SAE 60 Synthetic Super

Heavy Weight Racing Oil 1265

How does that compare to the oils mentioned earlier in this thread?

patrickt · #**114** (**permalink**) 08-06-2010, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SantaFe66

How does that compare to the oils mentioned earlier in this thread?

All of those oils are just fine for our cars including solid, flat tappet cams. Once you get over around 1200ppm it's no longer a case of protection, in and of itself, but rather how long that protection will last (because the additives are consumed). We all change our oil out long before the additives are used up, so that's not really a big deal. But to answer your question, the opening post in this thread lists Brad Penn as coming in at 1500ppm, but that doesn't mean it protects better. It's like vitamins, once you have enough, you have enough; taking more doesn't help you (and sometimes can hurt). And yes, there is a point of diminishing return for ZDDP as well. I have an SAE article where tests done on solid flat tappet cams and ZDDP back in the 1970's showed that once you crested about 1900ppm wear began to increase.

madmaxx · #**115** (**permalink**) 08-06-2010, 06:35 AM

Patrickt is dead on, in fact over 1900 ppm from what I read causes bearing corrosion issues. Does anyone know the rate of consumption, 100 ppm every xxxx miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

All of those oils are just fine for our cars including solid, flat tappet cams. Once you get over around 1200ppm it's no longer a case of protection, in and of itself, but rather how long that protection will last (because the additives are consumed). We all change our oil out long before the additives are used up, so that's not really a big deal. But to answer your question, the opening post in this thread lists Brad Penn as coming in at 1500ppm, but that doesn't mean it protects better. It's like vitamins, once you have enough, you have enough; taking more doesn't help you (and sometimes can hurt). And yes, there is a point of diminishing return for ZDDP as well. I have an SAE article where tests done on solid flat tappet cams and ZDDP back in the 1970's showed that once you crested about 1900ppm wear began to increase.

dcdoug · #**116** (**permalink**) 08-09-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

I was getting it off Amazon.com and you could generally find it for just under five bucks a quart and then try for the "Super Saver" free shipping. But the Oil Warehouse now ships it to me for that price as well, so I think I will give them a try. I think that's the price to beat right now, five bucks a quart delivered to your door.

FYI - to our location, Oil Warehouse charges $39 + $21 shipping (

) or $60 delivered a case - they are definitely playing games with pricing and shipping. You can buy from a fellow Club Cobra member (Fred - "FWB") for $48 + $11 shipping or $59 delivered. So you get to support another club member for the same price.

Anyway, thought I'd throw that out there.