Sidewinder intake VS modern, Edel, Pond, BT ?

[undy]

Suggestion Kev; Why don't you PM Jay on FordFE telling him your proposed build specs and ask him, in his opinion, what the best carb/intake combo would be best for your application?

"Others" got the impression that I was diss'n Jay and his credibility, couldn't be further form the truth. I highly respect the man and his FE knowledge.

FWIW, the engine he used to make that round of tests on was a stock stroke with stock, non-CJ iron run-o-the-mill heads and a v-e-r-y mild performance cam. You're going to be running a nominal 20% more displacement (527 vs 428). Your heads will flow at least 50% more then the ones used in the tests and your mechanical roller will be monstrous compared to his smallish cam. Your combo will tremendously outflow his setup. The intake that was "perfecto" for his motor could quite possibly cause yours to fall flat on it's face, or close to it by 4500 RPMs. Your setup will be much closer to one of Jay's mustang race motors, no Dominator, maybe a bit less compression, less lift and duration on the cam, but very similar.

Most of the FE masses (including myself) will never have a motor like yours. They may comment and say their iron head 390 ran good with this 'n that or this widget made the most horsepower for me ... but... that really holds little value to you ... and quite possibly could be vey BAD advice in your case.

Jus' a little "friend"ly advice, my friend We be cool... just be careful who you listen to.

[FUNFER2]

I agree that those combo's would not work for my application and the tests results do not matter to me, in the sense of what can be done with my motor, we're talking apples to orange's here in my case. My intake will be ported and matched to the heads to gain as much breathing & expelling as possible. The cam duration will need to be over 300 also. These FE's like to fart as much as possible.

I'll shoot over to FORD FE and see if I can find him.

[undy]

Kule beans Kev...

I think you'll find, bang for the buck, that Ebok's Victor series will be your best bet HP wise. I do believe Dove makes some "period correct" hi-flow intakes but they are pricey and tend to be problematic (porosity etc). The Tunnel Wedge 2x4 and Barry's twin 750's (like I'm running) would work good for you and give you some period correct race bling too!

[FUNFER2]

Yeah, will you sponsor your intake & carbs. ?
Yep, very expensive.
I've always liked the 2x4 look, and with the Stellings & Hellings filters.

[gsharapa]

Kevin,

Did you decide to go with the single plane Victor on your 527 FE? Will it fit under the hood?

[FUNFER2]

Hey Gary, I had the Victor on my last FE and I have the new Victor sitting in my living room, ready to be shipped to my engine builder. Seeing the dyno test of the FE dual plane,.... intakes results of Jay Brown on Ford FE site.

It is fascinating what manifold came on top but, although a comparison is nice, there's too many variables to consider. Even dyno testing on different weather days can make a difference. It was interesting and happy Jay took the time to perform the test.

On my last FE, I had to plane down the carb surface apx. 3/8" and I still had a little,....rubbing on the hood. This time I'll take it down a 1/2". I'm told by a few engine builders that it won't change performance enough to matter, especially in a cobra. With the big inch and power of my new motor, even 5-25 HP/TQ loss is not a issue.

One guy said about my monster motor,..., ""no sane person will ride with you" lol, that's great !"
And another- "cool project, tho it sounds alot like ice skating with a rocket pack.
best of luck, and give us a link to the article when it's done.
Drew"


Here's what Barry had to say-

Mr. Gilmore has an interesting project going together. He's managed to get a lot of support from various manufacturers Unfortunately I was not in the position to contribute product or labor when approached - but I can at least provide some tech and ideas on parts.

The cam can be big. With lots of cubes and a light car you want to kill the low end. I would probably at least go into the 250s on @.050 duration. Royce's thought on LSA is good - but in a slightly different manner. A wider LSA will soften the torque curve, making the car a bit more linear and smoother to drive. On big engines we widen the LSA anyways because we don't need to crutch the torque peak to recover on shifts. For lift I would think something in the .700 range would be pretty durable and keep you in the realm of decent oval track quality springs.

Anything other than a Dove or Victor Dominator flange, or dual quads on a tunnel wedge will choke that thing. Simply too high an airflow demand. Next bet might be a modified Blue Thunder Dominator flange dual plane. Or a highly modified Streetmaster or Street Dominator. Most of the guys running hard with those use a lot of spacer..and they are running smaller engines.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

He knows a hell of a lot more than I do but, from my research for a lager cubed FE motor, I though the duration needs to be apx....300 (+) ?
I don't really want to go over 700 lift and the lobe sep of 110 ?

Maybe I should start a thread about the cam specs for this engine ?
I need the entire motor to be in-sink with each other, not just throwing in a big cam. The carb cfm is also in question. When I spoke with Anderson, he said most people use way too large of a carb. They recommended around a 750-850. On Ford FE, clear up to a 1150 !
I seriously don't think I need one that big.

Link on Ford FE-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+Intake+test+-

What do you guys think ?
And again, maybe I should start a new thread about my entire build with the products and parameters ?

[gsharapa]

I think a thread might be a good idea........I'm going with a 850 Quick Fuel carb but haven't talked to Keith yet on the cam specs but I did send him an email on the victor vs the dual plane RPM manifold. I'm new to the FEs as most all of my cobra engines in the past were big small blocks which all had single plane manifolds on them. I did have one with a 514 Ford crate engine many, many years ago and I believe it had a single plane with a dominator. I think there is a pic of that one in my gallery also. These cars are so light and mine even more so being carbon fiber that we clearly do not need all the tork these big FE will produce. I guess at the end of the day any thing over 600HP is going to be difficult to get to the ground any way.

[gsharapa]

Kevin,

I went back and looked at the post from CSX3170 on his big FE with solid roller..........

__________________________________________________ __________________________

I'll give you the short version, engine is Shelby FE block, Blue Thunder raised port heads (it only needs 29 D. advance at peak power), MSD, Carrillo rods, Victor jr. manifold- highly modified, Ti Valves, 14.7 to 1, 1650 cfm Throttle body, seq. EFI really big roller cam, peak power 7600 peak torque 5500, headers are 2 1/8 primary 3.5 collectors. This engine has a Daley dry sump and Stefs tank and never leaks oil as long as it is running (13" of vacuum) CID = 498 with a Moldex billet crank. Engine by Kinetics in Michigan

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Is their any power differences between a bone stock original Sidewinder, Edelbrock, Blue Thunder and Pond intake ?

What is the power potential differences with the same,... ...porting & polishing technique's ?

I'm guesing the bigger and wilder the engine, the greater the difference, but it still may not be that much. Definitely, the sidewinder and BT dual planes look period correct, and they still can make good power.

I have a 477" FE, solid roller, 10.5:1, with a sidewinder and holley 950 HP, and it made close to 500 rwhp and 500 rwtq, like 490 or something like that.

[FUNFER2]

These is my thoughts on manifolds, for cobras.

Dual plane for owners that want nothing too radical of a engine, good even power through out the lower & middle rpm range. And, to be able to fit under the hood.

Single plane owners that have pretty stout big motors like mine, that already have high low rpm power, and is going to run higher rpm's and a lot of HP up top. Since I don't plan on making my cobra & motor a race car, road race or drag, I personally, think a overabundance of low rpm TQ, is just plane fun. I'm not so concerned with traction.

If I did race and was concerned about traction, I would build my cobra completely different.

IFS/IRS racing suspension, small block engine, light wheels, track tires, Richmond tranny, ect......

My cobra is for fun on the street, a bit of traveling, and occasional track time.
All out brute force, over the top performance and amazing sounds & feel.

(do you have the cam specs and dyno information on that Shelby FE) ?

Anthony- What are your cam specs & how do you like the solid on the street ?

[gsharapa]

CSX3170 didn't post the specs but he is on the forum so you could send him an email. It's a big motor with high compression so a bit of a different animal then what we are building. I talked to Keith and he said he has done a few Victors and milled the carb flange .500 to make sure everything clears. Said it would definately kill some of the low end tork and build more power up high and that's what I really want so I'm going that route now....

[FUNFER2]

I agree, and think we'll never miss the little torque loss in our cobras.
So, we see eye to eye.

[Barry_R]

When I reference cam specs I am talking about duration @ .050 lift. The advertised duration numbers are nearly meaningless.

[FUNFER2]

Barry- With the parameters I've set, what specs would you recommend for my needs ?

I would appreciate your FE advise.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Anthony- What are your cam specs & how do you like the solid on the street ?

about .680 lift, duration about 255-260 @ 0.050

Solids make more power than a similar spec hydraulic roller, from what I have seen, above 5000 rpm's.

There are drawbacks.

1. with an all aluminum engine, at ambient temperature about 70 F, the valve lash needs to be about 0.015 tighter to get the desired lash at operating temp. I have found it very difficult to start when the temp is below 50 F, sometimes impossible, as the lash is then too tight. Cast iron block is friendlier in cold weather.

2. With the stiffer springs, things can break easier, ie rocker arms.

3. Sometimes there is severe galling at the pushrod-rocker cup, but, from the various solid roller lifters I have seen, the ones with oiling to the roller bearings (crane, crower, jesel), the lifters also have an oil feed hole in their pusrod cup, and will likely oil feed the top of the pushrod if running hollow pushrods, and may eliminate that issue.

I'm still on the fence whether I should have gone hydraulic roller or not. My friend has a KC 482" FE hydraulic roller, dyno'd by KC with 600 HP at the flywheel. My engine is stronger by seat of the pants guaging. At another chasis dyno, not the one where I had my car done, his car dyno'd at about 400 rwhp and 400 rwtq. He runs an edelbrock performer rpm, and holley 950 or something like that.

[FUNFER2]

I now have a big,... problem with getting the motor done in time for the magazine shoot & interview's, at the Run & Gun, courteous of the salesman with Mahle Pistons. I ordered the slugs in first week in July and assumed,..... they were delivered to the engine builder, but when told me yesterday, he has not received them, I called Mahle, and my sales guy said he was sorry, that he did not put the order in !

Now it will take 3 weeks for them to custom make the 4.375 bore = 4.380 piston size. I did call two other company's, and they also would take about the same time to make.

As of today, if Mahle starts making them, by the time Dennis receives them and builds the motor, then delivered to me and time for me to install, I don't think I'll make the show.

Today- August 25
Pistons made in three weeks- Sept- 14
I would like 7 days to install & road test- Sept. 17
Run & Gun- Sept. 23-25

I don't see how I'll make it. Any ideas other than reducing the cid to 482 or 496, for shelf pistons ? Although, I would hate,.... to do this !

This screws up the entire project. I'm over being mad and now it really saddens me very much.

[Barry_R]

What is the desired compression distance? Pin size? Ring pack? I have something for another project on the shelf...

[blykins]

You could use a Ford 460 stroker piston if you're really in a bind.

Use a standard 4.360" bore, or a .030" over 4.390" bore.

FE deck height = 10.170 - 6.700 rod - 2.125 (1/2 stroke) = ~1.345" C/H

If you used a 557 piston with a ~1.350" C/H, it would share the same wrist pin as the BBC rod used in the FE strokers.

[blykins]

Wait, are you using a 4.25" stroke?

[FUNFER2]

Compression can be up to 10.5 on pump gas, or a little higher, because of using aluminum heads.

The pin size is what's normal on a 6.7 BB Chevy connecting rod.
For 527 cubes, the bore is 4.375.
The 4.25 is for a 482 cube I believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ring pack, I don't know exactly what you mean ?
I will use perfect circle rings.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist so, I don't want to just get by not using correct parts.