A few oil related questions/conserns.......

[dlotz]

I have a question about excessive smoke out of the pipes at idle and oil pressure.

OIL PRESSURE:
ok, so we took the car out on the road for the first time after paint. Previously (during go carting) I would take short 5 minute drives and the oil pressure stayed right around 80 psi.

Today we went on a 35 minute drive and in 4th / 5th gear with the foot on the gas I was running about 100psi. Foot off the gas I was at 80 psi. But when I would be at idle at a light (1200 rpm) my oil pressure dropped down to 45 psi and sounded like the engine was going to stahl without a little gas to bring the rpms up.

SMOKE OUT OF THE PIPES:
At start up I get a lot of smoke out of both pipes and a pool of oil coming out of the pipes as well. After warm up during running I dont see smoke, but when I idle I see a little more smoke. If I shut the car down to get gas and try to restart it 5 minutes later, it is very hard to turn over. Almost like it is flooded and has to crank out excess pressure to breath and start. After 30 minutes of driving I pulled into drive way I was still getting heavy smoke out of the pipes.

Could I have too much oil in the system causing high pressure and oil leaking into exhaust?

Is the oil cooler keeping the oil heavy, making higher pressure in the system?


here is the set up:
1965 427 side oiler, 10:1 cratio, iron MR heads, new bronze valve guides, dual holley 4bbl carbs, Penn 20w50 green oil, mocal oil cooler with thermostat, avaid 9qt pan, oil vapor canister, pent roof valve covers without breather caps, solid lifter.... Everything fresh machined and assembled by a pro FE builder. Broke in on engine dyne and about 100 street miles.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks

Dan

[blykins]

What color smoke?

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by blykins

What color smoke?

Whiteish, but not think billowy bright white. Hard to tell, could be a light black, explaining why I can't get it started again like it is flooded...

[blykins]

White is usually an indicator of burning coolant....

Blue is usually an indicator of burning oil....

Black of course is a rich condition.

[elmariachi]

Same basic engine and setup as mine. Was this engine broken in on a dyno?

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Same basic engine and setup as mine. Was this engine broken in on a dyno?

Yes it was

[elmariachi]

As Brent said, its more likely coolant than oil. What is the consistency of the stuff coming out the pipes (both?) Is it tinted green ala Brad Penn or black and runny like Coke?

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

As Brent said, its more likely coolant than oil. What is the consistency of the stuff coming out the pipes (both?) Is it tinted green ala Brad Penn or black and runny like Coke?

Black runny like coke syrup.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by dlotz

Black runny like coke syrup.

At only 100 miles I would think the green tint of the Brad Penn would show up in the side pipe discharge if it were oil. But burning oil should be blue, not white. I wouldn't run it anymore and maybe pull the plugs and see what you see. Don't know if the huge oil pressure is a factor unless its pooling oil up in the valve covers and you have multiple valve seal failure. How does the oil on the dipstick look? Nice and green?

[Keithc8]

Your oil pressure is fine. I would check the float levels on the carbs as well as the fuel pressure. It sounds like at an idle that you are to rich and this is why it is trying to die and why it is hard to start. You may just be getting fuel in the exhaust and washing what is in there out. I would like at the carburetor first and go from there.

Good luck, Keith

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

At only 100 miles I would think the green tint of the Brad Penn would show up in the side pipe discharge if it were oil. But burning oil should be blue, not white. I wouldn't run it anymore and maybe pull the plugs and see what you see. Don't know if the huge oil pressure is a factor unless its pooling oil up in the valve covers and you have multiple valve seal failure. How does the oil on the dipstick look? Nice and green?

Nice and green on the stick and the plugs are clean. I am guessing it's a rich fuel issue like Keith mentioned. I was just surprised to see that much oil pool out the pipes.

[Excaliber]

...it is very hard to turn over.

That kind of statement always leaves me scratching my head.

1. Is it "hard to turn over" as in the STARTER MOTOR doesn't want to SPIN the engine? 2. Or is it "hard to turn over" as in the starter motor spins the engine fine, it just doesn't START right away?

#1 is often related to much base timing advance. #2 could be a lot of things, like running rich or any number of other issues.

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

That kind of statement always leaves me scratching my head.

1. Is it "hard to turn over" as in the STARTER MOTOR doesn't want to SPIN the engine? 2. Or is it "hard to turn over" as in the starter motor spins the engine fine, it just doesn't START right away?

#1 is often related to much base timing advance. #2 could be a lot of things, like running rich or any number of other issues.

The starter spins the flywheel just fine, it just sputters and sputters untill it finally starts and I have to give it a little gas to get it fully running.

[Excaliber]

Ok then, it's hard to start, but it turns over just fine.

I wonder, when you say you have to give it a little gas if what is REALLY happening is you open the throttle plates (by giving it a little gas) and because the throttle plates are now open a bit, it gets more AIR and that helps it start. "Giving it more gas" may not be whats actually happening you see.

Classic approach to a "flooded conditon" is to hold the throttle wide open, thus introducing much more AIR than there is FUEL and that helps to flush the raw fuel out the exhaust, lean the fuel/air ratio and help the motor get started. Letting up and then pushing down on the throttle is not a good idea if you suspect a flooded condition. Everytime you lift the throttle and then depress it again, your carb accellerator pump shoots MORE gas into the engine!!! If flooded, floor it and HOLD IT there, do not "pump" the gas.

... not that I have a clue whether your flooded or not, just sayin'...

[dlotz]

Yep. It feels like it is choked and need more air. I dont pump the gas I just press it down a little to open the butteryfly plate and it eventually starts. Which is why I think I am running rich/choke needs to be adjusted.

[Excaliber]

It is somewhat common for a carb engine to get a little heat soak after it sits about 5 or 10 minutes. Just long enough to fill the gas tank, put the cap on, pay, walk back to the car, and then hard to start (CRANKS fine ). Could be some gas boils over or evaporates and leaves a "fog" in the carb barrels, thus resulting in a somewhat flooded condition. The extreme end of that would be like KC mentioned, float to high and serious flooding is the end result.

Something I've found that helps to address that problem is to make sure your running enough BASE timing to begin with. Most often I see "hot rod" type motors (big cam, after market this and that) NOT running enough base timing. "We" get scared and worried that if it's to much it might ping,,, it won't. Ping, generally, has nothing to do with BASE timing, PING (detonation, knock) is typically induced because your mechanical advance advances the timing to far in ADDITION to the base timing. To far or possibly to fast, but really, to far is the primary concern, to fast is not generally a problem. Not fast enough is more of a problem!

So how do you know how much base timing you need? One method is to advance it until the starter motor has a hard time CRANKING the engine over. When you get that, then back off the timing "just enough" so the starter can crank it nicely. Myself, I run about 20 degrees base timing, 22 makes the starter grunt, it's that close!

Typical timing setup is something like, 32-35 degrees TOTAL (base plus mechanical advance) "all in" by say 3,000 rpm. Myself, I like it to come in sooner and I run it higher, 36-38 total. But OK, I'm not all together normal (but I am fast)!

If it were mine, I'd bump up the base timing just to see if it improved the hot start condition if nothing else.

Important foot note:
You may have to buy or have built a special mechanical advance stop "button" of some kind to limit the maximum allowed mechanical advance IF your running a lot of base timing to begin with. 20 base, plus the typical 18 mech advance for an MSD is a total of 38, might be to much for YOUR motor. You either have to custom modify the MSD distributor OR run less base advance. I modified the MSD distributor on my engine to get what I wanted...

[Excaliber]

The "engine wants to stall" at idle condition may be nothing more than the idle speed is to low or the carb air/fuel ratio idle screws need a slight adjustment. What worked on the dyno, for the carb adjust, may not be perfect for the real world environment where the engine lives on a daily basis.

Dual fours can be tricky, I run them as well and like them a lot. But, they are ***** sometimes to get dialed in.

[Barry_R]

I assembled and dyno'd the engine. It broke in nicely, ran quite well, made good power and had no outward symptoms of any distress - seemed like a good piece.

The carbs were prefessionally replated and reconditioned originals. The heads have new bronze guides and viton seals. The intake gaskets are either steel lined or BTs - can't remember which but definitely not the unreinforced 1247s.

Really sounds like a fuel/carb related issue - especially the hard start. Very possible to get some trash into a needle/seat with a new build - lots of fresh hoses and connections. Or we could have gotten a funky gasket or float.

I see a lot of problems with current pump gas on heat soak. Fuel boiling points have changed a lot since newer cars are all running fuel injection with no open reservoir of gas (float bowl) and running pressures of 50+psi instead of the 6 or 7 we run. Local gas formulations change a bunch now too, both by region and by season - with varied amounts of alcohol in the mix. I have one customer who would pick up his car running great, drive home in Michigan's Upper Pennisula (+/-6 hours) and say the car always started running like crap halfway there with hard starts and roughness and dieseling. Turned out he would always fill up at the same station in Williamsville on the way - he brought 10 gallons of that swill down to the shop and we tuned around it - problems cured.

[Snakebit]

I had oil dripping from the pipes and leaking oil at the exhaust gaskets. The intake manifold gasket was leaking. How much oil are you using? If it is dripping out the pipes, you should notice a difference on the dip stick even after a short run.

[RICK LAKE]

dlotz D try this, take the car for a cruise and get everything to operating temps. 10-15 minutes will do it. Bring a small block of work with you, 2X4", 6 inches long. Tape the ends to protect the paint. Wedge the back of the hood open and waiut 5- 10 minutes and see if the motor fires up easier. I think you are having heat soak problems. Do your coolant fans stay on after the motor is shut down? If yes they have no where to move the air and it stay under the hood. Try this and report back. Rick L. Ps run the fans for 1 minute if the battery is strong with hood cracked.