428 starter drags when hot

[Grubby]

I have a 428 stroker built and dyno tuned by Danbury Competition, with about 800 miles. The compresion is 10.5. The starter looks like a standard Ford unit.

It starts fine cold, but when hot the starter drags and barely turns the engine over. It will usually start. If it is really hot the engine won't even turn over until it cools down a bit. By hot I mean normal operating temp and run for an hour or better. The cool down takes about 20 minutes.

I hate to guess. I prefer to diagnose and then repair. Where would you start?

John

[blykins]

Could be a couple of things:

1. A lot of initial timing
2. Starter getting hot

Where's your initial timing set at?

[Dwight]

battery cable to small?

Dwight

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Grubby

I hate to guess. I prefer to diagnose and then repair. Where would you start?

Run a voltage drop test along your starter circuit. First when the engine is cold, then redo it when the engine is hot and having problems. Here are detailed instructions on how to do that: http://www.engine-light-help.com/voltage-drop.html

[Grubby]

Brent,
I am not sure where the timing is set. It was dyno tuned by Danbury Comp and has not been changed. What would you suggest for initial and total timing?

Dwight,
The battery cables were all sourced and installed by ERA. I assume all is good.

Pat,
I will run the voltage drop test this weekend and let you guys know what I find.

John

[patrickt]

I don't think it's going to be your timing or the size of your cables. If you're lucky, it's a bad connection and the voltage drop will tell us that. An easy way to eliminate the "too much timing" factor is to just pull your coil wire when the car is hot and will not crank normally. If the car then cranks beautifully (but obviously won't start) then timing is indeed a factor. If it continues to crank slow and hard, then the timing had nothing to do with it. One nice offshoot of the voltage drop test is that it forces you to actually put your fingers on, and to take a hard look, at each connection from the battery, to the solenoid, to the starter, and the ground circuit as well. It could be something as simple as a loose battery terminal clamp. Read that article carefully though. It's important to start your test from the actual battery terminal itself (not just the clamp that goes around the terminal).

[Grubby]

I had some time to work on the car tonight after a cruise in.

With engine hot and starter not spinning fast enough to start the car;
1. unplugged coil wire - no change in starter speed
2. Voltage drop test w/engine hot
- 12.8v at the battery (static)
- 10.8v across the battery terminals when cranking
- 6.8v to 10.8v w/red DVM probe on starter cable and black on starter stud. The reading was jumping back and forth between the two readings. crank speed was also fluctuating.

I am getting closer to finding the problem. It must be a connection problem in the battery cables. I will get serious this weekend.

[Grubby]

The bolt for the transmission ground cable was finger tight. I think this is a primary ground for ERAs with trunk mounted battery.

It is raining today. Hopefully I can take it for run on Sunday and test it out.

John

[patrickt]

You need to make a run over the entire car looking for little things like that which vibrate loose. You might want to remove that bolt, scrape any oxidation off the connector, and where it connects to, then smear a little dielectric grease on it. You might also want to check these two threads where eensy-weensy-tiny-loose bolts stranded me once and forced me to limp home on the other. I'd check both of them if I were you.
Clutch Set Screw: Ehhrggg, Standed by a Set-Screw
Shifter Bolt: Dang--1, 3, and 5 Gone... and I'm out in Bumf***

[RICK LAKE]

Grubby John 2 important things have been covered with battery cables and grounds. I would tell you to add a second ground cable from the block to the frame of the car. I run 3 on mine with the a battery in the trunk. Starter shield to slow down the heat soak of the starter. Jegs & Summit carry them. The better thing would be to get a gear reduction starter or mini starter. You would have to get it setup with the gear to flywheel clearance. It will spin over slower but will fire up any motor.
The other thing is to check the charging system and the CCA of the battery and have a battery test done. It is possible that your battery doesn't have a full charge after being run for 1 hour of driving. If you are running the 60-70 amp system and have under drive pulleys on the motor, the charging may be marginal at times with cooling fans on. You want about 14.2 volts with the motor running and no power draws.
There is alot of heat under the hood from the motor and headers. If you are going to stop the car for a period, I would tell you to pop the hood to help remove the heat. A small piece of 2X4 works great to hold open the hood. Rick L.

[Zoom This]

All the things mentioned can be the root of your starting problem. I had the very same problem with my 418W and was solved with a Ford Hi-Perf starter. I ditched the stock starter and have had no starting issues for 7 years now. My engine ground wire from frame to bellhousing bolt came loose years ago causing a no/hard start condition. Cleaned and tightened work done by a mechanic earlier in the week.

[Grubby]

Zoom This,

Where did you get the Ford Hi-Perf starter and what is the part number?

I still have a slight problem when the engine is hot. I think I need to add a heat shield or get a starter with a bit more torque.

John

[tboneheller]

I had a hard start problem a few years back. It only happened when hot. It turned out to be a stuck mechanical advance in the MSD distributor.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tboneheller

I had a hard start problem a few years back. It only happened when hot. It turned out to be a stuck mechanical advance in the MSD distributor.

That's a perfect example of when pulling the coil wire would make the engine crank perfectly (but not start). Then, if you're like me and only running 10 degrees initial timing, you would say to yourself "WTF, how could ten degrees be too much?" And then you'd look a little further and find your stuck advance.

[BAsque1]

Hello guys:
It seems that we suffer from a common Cobra problem. I have a West Coast Cobra powered by a 427 FE s/o after an hour run at normal temp 220 degrees the starter will do click click and no turning.

I purchased a high torque mini starter from JEGS and a heat shield. I still have the same problem. The battery cables appear to be great gauge and tight\.

I do not have an MSD box but I am waiting for one to be delivered as a possible solution. But reading all these threads it seems that there is more than one cause for this issue.

The fans could draw ampage for starting. I also have the bypass wire to the firewall solenoid some opinions are that this is not needed...
I am open to suggestions for this really pesky problem .
Thanks guys
Lou

[cobraman428]

I have experienced your problem with my 428 and solved it. The result was my timing was slightly advanced to much and needed to be retarded. The starter would not turn the motor at all hot much like a hydraulic lockup. Secondly, my battery was undersized. Good luck.

[Rick Parker]

A common problem with FE's and the OEM starters is the remote solenoid often becomes compromised when the buss bar inside gets arcd up from heavy aprege demands from the OEM starter. The heat soak causes the problem to be more severe. Many of the modern small starters have the solenoid on the starter motor and are epoxy encapsulated, they require much less amperege, and with gear reduction achieve the similar or more torque as the OEM type starters, are smaller and take up less room, thus are further from the headers.

1. Get a small Hitachi or similar starter
2. Bypass the OEM Ford type starter solenoid.

You will be happy.

[Grubby]

My car is 100% fixed. It has been driven enough that I am confident.

Tightened one ground bolt. Confirmed timing was not my problem by disconnecting coil wire and confirmed the engine would crank. The final fix was replacing the OE type starter with a high torque OE type starter from Summit.

I have driven for a couple hours at a time and the car fires right up every time.

John

[Barry_R]

You simply had a bad starter. Shorted winding or a binding bushing. These factory starters have often been rebuilt 43 times by now - with a broad range of components and quality. Glad you got it fixed easily.

[RICK LAKE]

BAsque 1 Lou IMO 220 for coolant temp is TOO high. This is not a nascar motor. All cobras have a problem, getting air in and ouit of the engine compartment. Hot air soak is causing some of the problems to start. I know guys hate this but my opening the hood an inch or 2, this help reduce the heat problem.
To start with install a 180F thermostat. Have a 50/50 coolant distilled water in the system. If you have coolant fans in the front of the radiator, remove them and try a road test on temp. There have been a couple of guys here that will tell you that these fans look cool but do little to nothing for helping supply more air though the radiator.
I am not sure how your radiator is mounted, straight up and down or at a 20-30 degree angle. Up and down is better. If at a 20-30 degree angle you need a deflector added to help bend the air to go through the radiator for cooling. The other thing is that after you are going over 45 mph on the road the fans do nothing to help increase flow. Try and make sure to have a schroud covering the radiator to force the air to come through this opening.
Pulleys what ones are you running? If they are under size, you are going to run hot. I have been through this problem for over 1 year. I even added louvers to my hood to help remove heat. I also now run to 4" fans in the fender duct to help suck out the hot air. Went from a brass radiator to an Aluminum one. All this helped over time. I run under size pulleys and can race for 20 minutes and have the motor in the 195-198 range after the run. Oil temp is a little higher in the 200-205 range.
Last, charging system and battery size. Except for trucks, I don't see any large cables for cars any more. Builders are using cable that are just enough to cover the "total" ampage spike load on startup. Wire is thinner and the covers are littler. Old days, welding cable. Battery, what is the CCA of it? You said that your cooling fan is some times on. This fan can draw up to 32 amps on high speed. A 600 cca battery will last about 15 minutes before not having enough to crank over a starter,even a mini starter that pulls about 120-140 amps. Charging system, in the old days a 45 to 70 amp system was fine with only a couple for curcuits to run, ign, lights, gauges, and fuel pumps. Today, IMO you need an 95 amp alt min for all the loads now put on the electrical system. Also a battery with a min of 800cca, 900-100o would be better. Also dual grounds to the car chassic and motor. Even have a direct ground wire to the starter mounting bolt is not a bad idea.
Lou try this, after your next drive, buy a cheap tempature gauge for an oven and place it under the hood, come back in 5 minutes and read the temp. It should drop about 50 -60 drgrees easy. If not try this test with opening the hood about the height of a 2X4" again recheck temp see what the differents is. See if car starts up also. I think you will fine that this will help. Good luck Rick l.