Broke rocker arm..

[DIRTYDOG427]

I have a sideoiler with about 2000 miles on it since it was redone...3800 total and after I changed the oil last Thursday and I took it out and broke the driver side rocker at the frount end of the shaft right next to the support.. This is a stock cam unit that was gone thru by a really reputable guy close to Dallas.. nothing fancy just 427 MR with stock cam and only dynoed at 400 HP or so..but it was tight and I could tell this as I felt it loosen up as I put the miles on-- as I got up around 1000 plus I got to feel it loosen up..
What parts(rocker shafts) are the best for my needs and What is the best way to determine if any other damage has occurred and since it's an old engine with old parts I don't plan on a big power thing..it's fast enough to kill me as it is.. in a Unique body with Jag 3:42 that was put together in 1992 or so.. When it was gone thru the engine builder told me the cam needed oversize bearings as I had driven it orginally about 1800 miles and at that point it begain to lose oil pressure rapidly between shifts...so I quit driving it and put it in the barn in 99 and just got it running this past summer.. I missed a lot of fun!! So anyway the builder said he had never seen a block like this one that had the cam tunnel too large.. He put oversize bearings in it and oil presssure has been 65-75 and solid-- depending on rpm..I made the mistake of not running a termostat in it this past summer.. but I caught it the first time I drove it in cold weather.. hell It wouldn't get to 140 degrees or so..but that was only one time.. and I put a 180 in it and new rad..it runs about 175 with airflow...
2 question--How to look for any collateral damage and appropiately strong new shafts..?? Thanks for the help !!

[Excaliber]

It's a fairly common problem with an FE. Virtually no chance of collateral damage, no special shaft required, just replace it. The problem is related to the end stand that supports the shaft. Some FE's don't even have an end stand, which leads to a broken shaft. Often an existing end stand is not adjusted properly during the installation and does not offer enough, or any, actual support of the shaft. There are various methods to adjust the proper height of the end stand support, you need to find out how and get it right this time. Even a good builder can overlook or take for granted the end stand adjustment, especially with a mild build to begin with. The thinking might be, many of the originals never even had an end stand, this build is a mild low rpm motor, probably doesn't even really need an end stand. Like that... Well they DO need an end stand and one that is adjusted properly.

[RICK LAKE]

DIRTYDOG427 Pictures tell us alot of what happened. here's some ideas without see the rocker arm, are the arms aluminum or steel? Location of the break helps too. Is the riding surface of the shaft blue?
Going by your story here goes You said the motor needed over size cam bearings? I have not heard of them being around. If the bearing spins even a little on the #2 or #4 cam bearing you loose oil to the shafts. Since it was an end one, you may have no oil pressure to it and it just broke from heat and no lube. This is the reason for a picture. This rocker could be 20+ years old and just got fragile over this time and cracked. Next would be to check for coil bind on the valve spring. You want about .100" clearance between the coils. You can go as low as .060" I don't recomend this tightness.
The end support might not be seated and come loose and rocker everytime that end rocker goes through a cycle. The shaft will flex and the rocker will edge wear and break. Pushrod rubbing on the intake manifold hole can break the rocker if the pushrod is not centered to the rocker and the ball in the adjuster end. The hold down bolts, for the rocker shafts may have loosen, with out alot of oil going to the rocker arm pivot area, again over heat, hot spot and snapped.
I am going a little off base but this all comes back to possibility of the same problem, poor or no oiling to the rocker shafts. What is the oil pressure on the car in both hot and cold startup? Also what is the pressure at 2,000 rpms. I don't need this to the last pound but feel that you have little to no oil pressure at idle to the rocker shafts. Just because the gauge reads 30 psi at idle you may only have 5 psi at the rockers. IMOP if you are not running a HVHP oil pump with a MIN of a #60 psi pressure spring, the motor will not last. An HVHP oil pump with an #80 pound spring would be alot safer all the way around. This is not a small block chevy we are running. An FE needs alot more oil pressure and flow because of the way the oil goes in these motors, that is except for a side oiler. Also after repair get a bottle of Lucas oil suppliment and add this. Its a clinging oil and helps on startups. Quiets the motor and rocker arms down too. Make sure you add this with the motor warm and pour slow and let run for a couple of minutes to get a good mix. Also add 1 extra quart of oil to the motor. The returns are slow on the FE motors. It will not hurt anything and always keep your pickup in oil and not sucking air. You might still have a problem with camshaft bearings unless they where pinned in location. I will hope for old age. I would replace the set and buy either Harland-Sharps, Look around for a set of Ersons, or the replacement of the erson setup. They are not cheap but the motor is worth 10K, if you break it do you have another bullet in the garage? Don't go cheap on this part. Also add limiters to the rocker shaft openings to about .080-.090" oriface to control oil to the bottom end and keep more down bottom. This is ONLY if you repalce the oil pump with an HVHP one. Rick L.

[garry viohl]

http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/StoreFront.bok

[DIRTYDOG427]

U guys are great...thanks... the shafts are Ford aftermarket and aluminum I think..no discoloration .. as soon as I looked at it I thought with that hole drilled in it right next to the break..no wonder it broke there..the 1/4 dia hole had to weaken the shaft..and it's full of oil..clean and covered with oil... No collateral damage ..Golly I think christmas has come early this year...I will get a pic but out of time right now..thanks Guys !!!

[DIRTYDOG427]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

DIRTYDOG427 Pictures tell us alot of what happened. here's some ideas without see the rocker arm, are the arms aluminum or steel? Location of the break helps too. Is the riding surface of the shaft blue?
Going by your story here goes You said the motor needed over size cam bearings? I have not heard of them being around. If the bearing spins even a little on the #2 or #4 cam bearing you loose oil to the shafts. Since it was an end one, you may have no oil pressure to it and it just broke from heat and no lube. This is the reason for a picture. This rocker could be 20+ years old and just got fragile over this time and cracked. Next would be to check for coil bind on the valve spring. You want about .100" clearance between the coils. You can go as low as .060" I don't recomend this tightness.
The end support might not be seated and come loose and rocker everytime that end rocker goes through a cycle. The shaft will flex and the rocker will edge wear and break. Pushrod rubbing on the intake manifold hole can break the rocker if the pushrod is not centered to the rocker and the ball in the adjuster end. The hold down bolts, for the rocker shafts may have loosen, with out alot of oil going to the rocker arm pivot area, again over heat, hot spot and snapped.
I am going a little off base but this all comes back to possibility of the same problem, poor or no oiling to the rocker shafts. What is the oil pressure on the car in both hot and cold startup? Also what is the pressure at 2,000 rpms. I don't need this to the last pound but feel that you have little to no oil pressure at idle to the rocker shafts. Just because the gauge reads 30 psi at idle you may only have 5 psi at the rockers. IMOP if you are not running a HVHP oil pump with a MIN of a #60 psi pressure spring, the motor will not last. An HVHP oil pump with an #80 pound spring would be alot safer all the way around. This is not a small block chevy we are running. An FE needs alot more oil pressure and flow because of the way the oil goes in these motors, that is except for a side oiler. Also after repair get a bottle of Lucas oil suppliment and add this. Its a clinging oil and helps on startups. Quiets the motor and rocker arms down too. Make sure you add this with the motor warm and pour slow and let run for a couple of minutes to get a good mix. Also add 1 extra quart of oil to the motor. The returns are slow on the FE motors. It will not hurt anything and always keep your pickup in oil and not sucking air. You might still have a problem with camshaft bearings unless they where pinned in location. I will hope for old age. I would replace the set and buy either Harland-Sharps, Look around for a set of Ersons, or the replacement of the erson setup. They are not cheap but the motor is worth 10K, if you break it do you have another bullet in the garage? Don't go cheap on this part. Also add limiters to the rocker shaft openings to about .080-.090" oriface to control oil to the bottom end and keep more down bottom. This is ONLY if you repalce the oil pump with an HVHP one. Rick L.

Rick - this is a great post .. with a lot of info...I did make a mistake on the shafts as they are steel and broke right where the hole is drilled in em...no discoloration..and they look awlful good.. BUT & AND THIS IS A BIG BUTT LIKE ME... THERE'S MORE TO THE OIL CHANGE SCENARIO.. as I changed out the filter the jerk whom installed the filter placement on the driver's side of the fiberglass panel positioned the bracket too close to the frame to allow a filter wrench to get in there and around the filter without forcing the panel to flex ..and even then it's hard to get in there with a filter wrench...it's about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the bottem of the Fl-1A to the frame..so trying to load the open filter with oil in it onto the remote adapter is a tricky job..after about 5 plus minutes I got the filter started and got the wrench around the filter..Because it's remote with the Aero lines running to the cooler in the frount by the radiator --I didn't want to tighten it down until I was sure I had drained all thhe oil out of the cobra pan (flat botten inverted T shape pan).. I was afraid of the siphon efffect which could have turned out to be the fatal flaw... so long story short I drained and added to the full mark on the dipstick and started it up ...NO PRESSURE...2nd mistake is I let it run at low RPM for too many seconds.. I am guessing about 20-30 seconds before I notice there's oil all over the cement.. I never went back and tightened the filter !! TOTALLY EXPENSIVE SENIOR MOMENT !!! IT WAS me being in a hurry and wanting to get it started..so this motor ran with approximately a gallon low for 30 seconds at low RPM... I added a gallon and restarted and pressure jumped to 65 plus immediately.. I don't know the total capacity but it is at least 2 gallons with the lines & cooler & FILTER & big cobra pan etc..U never can really get all the oil out unless U somehow pressure it out..air ? It never really sounded any different and for the last 500 miles or so BEFORE THE OIL CHANGE the lifters had been gettting nosier...I have not adjusted them and it's been right at 2000 miles total since install...the ambient temp was about 65 degrees and with any rpm over 2000 or so the pressure will climb to 80 and I get scared of too much presssure if it's cold so I try and keep the rpm low 2000-2500.. until it warms up.. the pressure is always 60 plus even on hot summer days..I drove it a lot last summer when it was 100 degrees plus and it would still run 65 psi..the oil temp has never been over 150 or so.. on this motor even on 100 degree days..when going down the road at 50-100mph..but like I said earlier I ran all summer with no thermostat.. I only drive it out in east texas country lonely roads..So there it is.. MY BAd...destroying the sh-t I love... Thanks again Rick and all of Uall and will try and get back with a pic

[Excaliber]

The shafts always break at the oiling hole, the weakest point of course. There is no doubt in my mind the fundamental problem is an improperly installed/adjusted end stand support.

...of course the shaft is steel. Not at all suprising it shows no damage. That same thing would have happened, and will happen, with a brand new "super duty", nitride treated, high dollar shaft if it's not installed correctly. It's just one of the many quirks about FE's that is to often over looked, even by good engine builders.

[Excaliber]

Been there, done that, saw plenty of pictures, just like mine, of a broken shaft.
This pic, of my old motor, also shows a broken solid roller lifter.

These are two UNRELATED events. The solid roller that went out wasn't even on the same side as the broken shaft. In fact, I didn't even KNOW the shaft WAS broke until I tore down the engine! The motor ran fine, until I lost the solid roller bearings on the lifter.

From the looks of the picture you posted, I'm guessing you don't even have end stands for the shafts? Broken shafts is WHY end stand supports came about, the stock unsupported shafts break to often without them.

[DIRTYDOG427]

Just now begaining to "get it " Excalibur.. I had noticed increased noise and really didn't appreciate the importance of the height adjustment..Heck , I didn't even know the height of the stand was adjustable..
I give U another pic .. the stand closest to the end is about (what u see in the pic)an inch and a half from the end of the shaft..where the hole is..I don't have any end stand supports.. I thought the lifters were just getting noisey. I don't know where they are shimmed> I haven't even checked yet if the stand bolts are secure and the car is up at my brothers about 60 miles away.. these shafts came with the motor and it was pieced together in 1992 by who the heck knows.. It is an old sideoiler block out of Florida with lemans rods etc stock bore and .010 off the crank I think.. do sideoiler need more or less oil pressure than the center oiler? I appreciate ur post even more now..thanks .. so who does the proper heightening of the stands? I used to take it to 6500 all the time and then when I had it redone my builder said it didn't do it any good.. but I could do it occassionally ... I want to be able to run it as Ford intended.. new arp rod bolts.. stock cam.. I have tried to limit the rpm to below 6000 so far.. ??

[Excaliber]

Adjustment methods vary to much for me to speculate on how yours might work, assuming you even have adjustable type stands. But end supports, at the very end of the shaft, are a common upgrade to prevent breakage. Turning 6,000 to 6,500? Yup, you GOT to have end stands. You should consider going with a whole new after market type rocker assembly, stands, shafts and rockers. The only problem with that is, they ARE expensive! An option would be careful reassembly of the stock components, ALWAYS making sure your valve clearance is correct and limiting rpm to 6,000 (IF that) or even lower.

Note: IF your valve clearance needs frequent adjustment and is out more than a few thousands at any given time, SOMETHING is wrong with the valve train components. When everything is right, valve clearance changes very very little even over many thousands of miles. Set it, check it on occasion and forget it, no adjustment (or very little) should be required.

The stock rocker arms you are running sometimes have a bad fitting adjustment bolt that loosen's up prematurely, causing to much clearance and stressing components. Ford used to sell slightly LARGER/FATTER adjustment bolts for a tighter fit in the stock rocker.

I don't really know much about the oiling pressure/volume concerns of a side oiler vs a center oiler. Rick seems to have it covered well.

[Excaliber]

Here's a picture of a rocker arm shaft setup with no end stand support. Note the standard issue OEM shaft supports.

[Barry_R]

Reading Rick's stuff makes my head hurt - even when I agree with some of his writing. I am going to buy him a paragraph key for his computer....they gotta make those somewhere...

Anyhow. Breaking rocker shafts is pretty common as Excalibur noted. It always happens where the end bolt goes through because it's the weakest spot. Factory 427s have steel stands which add support - so Ford was aware of the weakness of the design even 45 years ago.

End stands are similar to the normal ones in his picture, except that they are "U" shaped - having an added piece that wraps around the end of the shaft giving additional support. You can still break a shaft with end stands - but you need to try a lot harder.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-4987827...2_2137_1291526

Stands are not really adjustable per se, but they should be checked during installation to be certain that they are all level and touching the head before being torqued down. I have seen bent shafts (not broken yet...) and mis-machined parts cause problems. I have also seen and experienced using fasteners that were too long, bottoming out in the hole before reaching full torque. I really prefer mounting studs for that reason.

Cam bearings are never "pinned" in an iron block - not sure where that came from, but doing so in an aluminum block is a good idea. I have used oversize cam bearings before - using the cam bearing set for a Genesis block in positions 2 through 5. The aftermarket Genesis 427 block has all five cam bearings the same outside diameter, as oppposed to the factory block where bearings are smaller in diameter going from front to back.

I don't subscridbe to the bazillion pounds of oil pressure, magic additive and submerge the heads deal - that's where Rick and I part ways. That's OK - we all have opinions. Your 65 pounds hot seems just fine to me - I'd like to see a little more at higher speeds, but that oil pressure ain't causing the rocker shaft breakage. A Chrysler oil filter is shorter or a Ford F700 truck oil filter is longer - one of those might help your installation issue.

Odds are that the shaft simply broke from fatigue. Lots of mile driven causing it to flex and work harden. A simple replacement might last another 20 years, although I'd add the end stands myself.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry R. Barry, we pinned cam bearings in both the fuel rail and funny car with iron 426 blocks. Have also done this on a Pont motor,with a poor camshaft tunnel. It's racing.
As for reading, I read your book and have not cryed. It's well done, little more reasons why this or that is done. It's alot better than the old info from service manuals that are 40 years old, but not old FE machinists.
As far as oil pressures, it ALL depends on what the motor application is for and how much oil pressure is at idle of the motor. How hard the motor is being abused. The stroker kits you sell and I have been running for 4 years, shows no sign or wear to rod or main bearings. It's hard to get a reading change of .0001-.0003". Still running 70-80 psi hot on the track and idle in the 35-38 psi at 750 rpm. These numbers are from a blue printed 427SO spec sheet. Going to work, how's that??? Rick L. Ps waiting for Jay's book to come out.

[CobERA]

Don't have much to add to this discussion, except to say that I recently broke my rocker arm shaft on my 428 FE. Snapped at the mounting hole over the #4 cylinder. I have over 26,000 miles on my engine, and have been known to push it a little hard sometimes. I did not have end stands. I ordered new shafts and end stands from Precision Oil Pumps. Hope to install them this weekend. Thanks to this thread I'll pay attention to the the alignment.

[DIRTYDOG427]

I too ordered new shafts from Precision , Clovis CA.. along with the end stands..Doug seems like a good guy.. He could have sold me new rockers along with it, but said that I ddidn't need em.. do rockers give much added HP? He said it would give me extra 300 rpm if the motor was good with it.. My engine has new ARP rod bolts but old parts otherside.. stock cam rods etc.. and because of vintage parts I didn't think I needed it to rev any faster esp in the high rpm range...This shaft failure has made me realize how much I want to preserve this 427SO.. and I can always add the rockers later..
Thanks all of you all for the help.. I am still open to why these gave way because I only had 2000 miles on the motor since it was freshened (I have no way to tell how many miles the shafts have on em) and they are not the thin shafts..I think they are the thicker shafs...175 wall thick .. I think Doug said the new ones would be .250.. Have a look..and thanks again..

[wideglidejoe]

Dirty Dog,

I think you'll be pleased with the Precision Oil Pump parts. I've purchased their parts, they make good stuff!

After reading all of this, I'm just surprised (and lucky) I didn't have a major failure back in the '60's. I hotrodded several FE combinations; mostly stock except for cam swaps, headers and bigger carbs. All using stock Ford rocker arms, both adjustable and non-adj, and the only FE failure I had was a timing chain stretched and jumped a few teeth on a warmed over 390 after 100,000+ miles of hard driving. Luckily no bent valves, etc.

I'm amazed at all of the FE knowledge that everyone has posted here. I've incorporated that info on my current build; FE oil mods, roller rockers w/end stands and shaft spacers, timing advance (initial and total), etc. All of this stuff has changed for the better since the 60's! Today we are in better shape for FE stuff than ever before.

[DIRTYDOG427]

I got the end stands and new shafts from Doug..Precision Pumps Clovis. He was great and did what he said he would..Ordered em Mon or Tues and had em by Fri PM..amazing ! When I took a closer look at the old set up as I took off the old parts I discovered the 5 & 6 stand holes had helicoils in em.. and today I discover the push rod out of the 6 hole was bent ..I can't recall if it's the intake or exhaust hole but the important thing is that it's the hole on the strong side of the stand where the shaft broke..the 2nd hole from the left..so how did it bend??? I would understand if the bent pushrod was in the first hole where the shaft broke.
Then, I go to get new pushrods and the guy says I better check the cylinder for pressure to see if I have a bent valve..Could a stuck valve have caused this? and have I got damage to the lifter and cam?? Appreciate the help guys..
The old builder of mine didn't put the stands in the correct order as he had em lined up as 5 -7 - 6 -8...Instead of 5-6-7-8-..I don't know if it would make a difference...The new parts are nice and the end stands are a tight fit on the headbolts-- but work...oil holes a lot smaller than the ones on the old stands. slots and oil holes to the bottem on the new shafts---OK. but my old stands had extra offset oil holes in the bottem where the stand bolts go and the new ones the holes in the bottem are only as big as the bolts..?? How does that work? Is this all because of the center oiler system that sends too much oil to the heads?? Thanks for the help?? what next --manifold??

[CobERA]

DDog,

I feel your pain. I also had a bent pushrod on the #4 intake valve. Also, the lifter had popped out. The whole R&R job became more involved, since I had to remove the intake manifold to reset the lifter. Finally got it all back together this past weekend. Have run it a couple of times with no problems, so I think I'm back in business.

Good-luck.

[DIRTYDOG427]

All the damage seems to be on 5 cylinder..I made a mistake on saying it was the 6 hole.. it is the 2nd hole from the left, but on the strong side of the old #5 stand .. so thanks for the info Rick ..I was wondering what that lifter would do when the cam hit it after the shaft broke..that pushrod seems real short and low now..it's the lowest pushrod of the bunch..how do I tell if the lifter is still in the bore? I guess the manifold has to come off?? Did U reuse that lifter or put a new one in?? thanks ..I am in Dallas and the car is up in my brothers barn about an hour away..so I only get up there once ,twice a week..I will go back Sat or Sun...

[Barry_R]

You can sometimes fish a lifter in or out with the intake in place. The distributor hole is a nice opening to use for this surgery - use a light in there and a magnet or claw tool on the lifter. On most intakes you can pull a couple bolts to gain access to lifters further back in the engine.