427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[CobraEd]

The Windsor 427 will have the same torque as the FE given that it is the exact same displacement, but the pistons/rods/crank will weigh significantly less than an FE and allow it to rev and build HP much faster as a result of the reduced rotational and reciprocating mass.


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[rodneym]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

The Windsor 427 will have the same torque as the FE given that it is the exact same displacement, but the pistons/rods/crank will weigh significantly less than an FE and allow it to rev and build HP much faster as a result of the reduced rotational and reciprocating mass. .

You mean exact displacements give exact torque???
What about the stroke/crank?

[CobraEd]

Rod/stroke ratio have a minor impact but mostly effect WHERE the peak torque comes in the rpm range. Overall displacement and compression ratio have the biggest effect on what the total amount of peak torque is. So, . . the same displacement engine with the same compression ratio will have pretty much the same peak torque regardless of the size/design of the block. What will be different is WHERE in the rpm range, the peak torque comes in and the ability to build revs fast.


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[Jerry Clayton]

would you like to point out what the weights of the components are that are so much less weight????

[CobraEd]

I had that info years ago, but don't have it anymore. But just as an example, I think an FE crank is about 75lbs and a Windsor crank is about 50 lbs. THIS IS NOT EXACT but close. Maybe others have the actual weights. The rods and pistons are also noticably heavier.


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[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

would you like to point out what the weights of the components are that are so much less weight????

Even with my old iron FE block, with the aluminum heads, intake, water pump, flywheel, and a couple of others I'm within 50 lbs. of an original all stock SBF, if memory serves....

[Jerry Clayton]

well, you can't be using terms light about and this is not exact---

The 4 inch Windsor cranks are out of stock so it'll be a bit before I can weigh one but I'll get some actual weights for you---there probably isn't 5 lbs differance and I wouldn't bet on which one is totally lighter--and don't forget that the windsor will have the added weight of the external balance weight on the front dampner and flywheel .

[CobraEd]

Read third paragraph:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ank/index.html


It is NOT about total engine weight in terms of a nose heavy car which has been discussed countless times here. It IS about the rotational and reciprocating mass of the crank/rods/pistons. There is a significant difference that cannot be negated like can be done with aluminum heads and manifolds.

Maybe Brent or Keith can go in the back and do an actual measurement of the FE and Windsor crank for us.


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[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

--and don't forget that the windsor will have the added weight of the external balance weight on the front dampner and flywheel .

Yes, that will be 28 ounces X2 ??? !!!


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[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

There is a significant difference that cannot be negated like can be done with aluminum heads and manifolds.

That's not entirely true, since manufacturers do make lightweight rods, pistons and cranks.

[D-CEL]

Do I dare......
OK I do!!
Both will get you down the road. If the “Originality” of your replica (I know super oxymoron) is important to you, the FE is the better choice (Did I really say that? lol)
If the cost to achieve that power is the driving concern than a non-FE is the better option.
You would certainly be “unique” with a non FE under the hood. In the Kirkham bible, that is a mortal sin! (BLASPHEMER!! BLASPHEMER!! How dare you speak of such things!!)
Whether you want or can stand the level of ….interest… your peers will bestow upon your non-FE Kirkham is another matter.

Jason

[Jerry Clayton]

We just got a pallet of Scat cranks in this morning--I'll see if there is a windsor 4 or 4 .125 crank and weight it---

I'll also go back thru some balance jobs for the bob wts down to the last gram


And no---its not 28oz times 2-----

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

And no---its not 28oz times 2-----

Yes, . . IT IS


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[cobrarkc]

Before we get the popcorn out, I just have to say one thing about weight. All the FE guys talk about aluminum heads, intakes and water pumps making them close to a small block weight. How many SBF's do you think don't have the same things on them which makes them lighter still. Like what has been said before, if you are going for originality sake go for the FE, if you don't care get the most bang for your buck. The limiting factor for FE's are the heads so they need the extra cubes to make the power. You can build an aftermaket block SBF to 460ci and use the Austrialian CHI heads and make the same HP# as an FE and have money left over. I do think the best choice for a Kirkham would be the FE though.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

Do I dare......
OK I do!!
Both will get you down the road. If the “Originality” of your replica (I know super oxymoron) is important to you, the FE is the better choice (Did I really say that? lol)
If the cost to achieve that power is the driving concern than a non-FE is the better option.
You would certainly be “unique” with a non FE under the hood. In the Kirkham bible, that is a mortal sin! (BLASPHEMER!! BLASPHEMER!! How dare you speak of such things!!)
Whether you want or can stand the level of ….interest… your peers will bestow upon your non-FE Kirkham is another matter.

Jason

Will he use a Lakewood or Quicktime bellhousing? I'll let the OP run a search on that lively discussion.

[lovehamr]

Yup, "Popular Hotchevying" that's where I get all my engine info................

[elmariachi]

Scat's catalogue says the FE 9000 crank is 64 lbs and 351W is 56 lbs. FE flat-top pistons are maybe 100 grams heavier? Rods can't be much either. Just doesn't seem like a very big difference, certainly not 25+ pounds.

[RICK LAKE]

Nice one Jim. Here we go with the motor debate again. It's what you favor in a cobra. There are a couple of crazy cobras oout there with V6 motor that will tear up most V8. Look up justa6, Pete will explain it.
Motors are what you can afford to blowup. Alot depends on what the car is going to be used for. A small block on most tracks will walk away from a BB FE motored car. Problem is traction and torque. Small block can make less torque in the lower end and match HP on the top end. REV limits are higher with a small block. Taking a windsor stroker to 7,500 or 7,800 rpms is alot easier than a FE.
If you are going racing, more and better speed parts for stroker windsor or even a cleveland motor than FE one. A tunnel port or cammer may be the exception to this rule. FE bottom end is heavy. rods are from 700 grams to over 1,000 with a poor bearing that is small and takes a heavy load. windsor rods are 75-200 grams lighter alone. cranks about 15-30 lbs different in weight. Blocks if iron are about 75 pounds different. The stroker kits for FE motors are now running BBC rods with better oiling and wider rod bearings. Down the road we may get away with 2.0" small block SC rods in FE motors. Some motors are running Honda rods at 1.88" and living well.
If this car is going to live on the street either motor is fine. Have seen a weslake-gurney headed small block with webers that is just super and runs great. For the big boys, Tunnelport, high riser, and the biggie, Cammer heads in a cobra are just super to look at. power wise about 635-640 for dual quad cammer. price tag about 38-45K. if money is no object, cammer will give you the best of both worlds. Sorry 429/460 motors even out in the 550 range IMO dont belong in cobras. That's just me. I have seen Hemi's, turbo V6 gm motors, SBC,BBC, even a Viper motor( Double Vemon ). You want power, this car bent wheel bars at Gate way and still ran in the 10's.
It's all about choice. Will tell you that if I was to do it over from a racing point of view, a stroker 396-408 would be my choice. The aftermarket block a 427- 454 windsor with cleveland heads. This about 1/3 the cost of an FE. If crazy, put a couple of turbos on an SB motor. 9.0 second and can't touch this. Remember big the motor, more weight to spin. More maintainance to do also and cost to repair is higher for an FE. Who's next??? Rick L. Ps the most important thing is to MATCH the parts for the motor to get max power and durability out of it. more power, less life of motor.

[Jerry Clayton]

CobraEd

Its 28 inch oz------

The Scat forged 351 wINDSOR 4 and 4.125 cranks weigh 58#
I don't have an FE crank to weigh but most of the big block cranks with BBC 2.100 rod and no center counter weights (same as stock) weigh 59 lbs

I have 9 balance cards on these engines and the heaviest bob weight back in late 70s for a 427 tunnel port with Ford 4.250 crank was 2443 grams
A Cleveland from 1983 bobweight stock stroke 2212 grams
Stroked Cleveland 2010 with all modern lite weight stuff 1804 grams
Stroked Wiindsor 427 last year 1845
370 windsor 2008 1829 grams351 windsor lite piston assy 2007 1810 grams
Dart 427 windsor 2007 at 1836 grams
fe 428 stock crank in 2009 2270 grams

Looking for the card on a 427 fe stroked to 482----

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick Lake

The Lemans rods weighted aprox 830 grams