427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by blykins

For a Kirkham 427 car, go with the FE.

How about a street driven, occasional track day, turnkey FE engine in the neighborhood of 600hp? If you're going to pay for a new 427 block, don't stop at 427 cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more horsepower you can make without making the engine un-streetable. 482ci is a very common size for these.

An FE is the only one to choose for a Kirkham. If you have chosen a Kirkham 427, then one reason for that choice is probably that you want something that is very close to the original 427s of the 60s, and no Windsors went into 427s that I am aware of.
The authenticity angle highlights another issue to me as well.... FEs bored/stroked out to 482ci were never fitted or available way back when, were they? My personal view is that if the components were available in the 60s the it's OK to mix and match now, so a 427FE stroked out to 454 with a 428 crank is OK, but anything bigger is not really kosher.
Cheers,
Glen

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by xb-60

My personal view is that if the components were available in the 60s the it's OK to mix and match now, so a 427FE stroked out to 454 with a 428 crank is OK, but anything bigger is not really kosher.
Cheers,
Glen

But you can't see it. Now the modern billet aluminum suspension and Wilwood brakes you can see.

Which brings us to one Kirkham option that wasn't mentioned on your other thread. The $16,000 "upgrade" to the original type suspension.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

But you can't see it. Now the modern billet aluminum suspension and Wilwood brakes you can see.

Which brings us to one Kirkham option that wasn't mentioned on your other thread. The $16,000 "upgrade" to the original type suspension.

I did not want to get into the same SB vs BB debate, but I was thinking the exact same thing about suspension, brakes etc... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by SP01715

... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

... with dual roll bars.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... with dual roll bars.

.........

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by SP01715

I did not want to get into the same SB vs BB debate, but I was thinking the exact same thing about suspension, brakes etc... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

It's all matter of degrees on the spectrum of life and also how much money you have in the bank that you're willing to withdraw.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Rick Lake

The Lemans rods weighted aprox 830 grams

Windsor rods appear to be in the mid 600 gram range:

http://www.hitech-industries.com/CONNECTINGROD1.HTML


.

[RICK LAKE]

Windsor rods can weight from 520-530 for a 260 motor and they get heavier until you hit the trans-am motor with 750 grams. stock 351 is about 695 to 710. These number also depend on fasteners.
FE motor range from 352 with about 700 grams to over 1,000 grams for the nascar rods. I have a box set of lemans rods that weight is 840 with out arp bolts in them, stock from ford. With blueprinting you can get them down to under 800 grams and still be safe to 6,500 rpms. Rick L.

[Avmaviator]

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

He does fine work. Of course, you have to push him a little if you'd like to have a solid flat tappet in that FE.

[blykins]

Avmaviator,

I would be happy to give you a list of references....some have even bought more than one from me.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

Avmaviator - very much the correct decision to go 'FE' (IMO)
This is not a small block Ford vs big block Ford question; it's a question of what engine should you put into a Kirkham 427-bodied replica.
And if it had been deemed OK to install a small block, then what about a 4.6 Mustang, or a Coyote? Or a V6?
OK, time to stop.
Cheers!
Glen

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-)

Good call--that's the right choice for a Kirkham.

Now you need to determine if you want an aluminum or iron block, how much HP and TQ you want, how many cubic inches, and whether you want a single 4 BBL carb, double "4s", webers, or fuel injection.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I'm going with an FE engine :-) I have been talking to Brent and he has put a nice package together. Anybody here with some of his engines?

I can't vouch for his engines but I can tell you he gives the best clutch I've ever had. Seriously, check his engine references but I can tell you he knows his stuff and he stands behind what he sells.

Originally Posted by patrickt

He does fine work. Of course, you have to push him a little if you'd like to have a solid flat tappet in that FE.

Now Brent, Avmaviator will know all about the reliability of Lycoming and Continental engines with solid lifters so don't be trying that hydraulic lifter spiel on him.

[RodKnock]

Can we spill the beans on details of this FE?

[Excaliber]

I don't now and have never bought the argument that once you start using modern suspesnsion, brakes, etc. etc. you've upset the apple cart and so now it's OK to run whatever modern motor you like as well.

It's NOT OK, in my opinion. You can tweek the the suspension and play with all kinds of variables through out the car, but the "motor" is the "soul". SOME Cobras demand certain motor's, other's not so much. ERA 427? Gotta be FE based, that's just the way it is. Kirkham, same thing. FFR? While small blocks are the rule of thumb, who knows what you might find lurking under the hood on any given car, no limits. FFR is pretty much a "no limits" car in all regards. Spice up the interior, go for some custom chrome wheels, heck, add a wing and some neon lights if you want. That doesn't make FFR good or bad, it's just a reality check.

Now if you start going all "custom look" stuff on a Kirkham and add red crushed velvet interior, chrome wheels and a V6, your going to look like the fool you are.

Changing the suspension is one thing, changing the interior and messing with the motor choice is a whole 'nother can of worms!

[Jerry Clayton]

Almost all the cranks on the market now will either use the sbc or bbc rod journal size and various lengths---I checked over 20 sets this morning of the rods for current builds in the shop here---some scat and the others Callies Compstar or Ultra (sorry didn't check any of the Lunaties) and various lengths---The Ford 302 style was lightest at mid 500 wts , small chev journal for small blocks most around 620 ( 6.0 length) and the BBC journal of various lengths would average around low 800 grams(814-835)

The cranks will weigh from high 50s(56-58 to low 70s (4.750 stroke))

biggest weight differances are in the piston/pin area because a short ch with real short/thin wall pin will vary drasticlly between the 4.0 and the 4.780 bores sizes.

the Honda rod sizes are lighter but we aren't seeing many of them for any street type engines and I didn't currently have any to weigh.

And the weight of the flywheel/clutch and harmonic dampner will be more significant that a few grams of piston weight. I have recently began to weight the cranks with the bob weights on them for some data but mostly to see how hard I'm working.

[olddog]

A 100 grams difference times 8 pistons is 800 grams - divided by 454 g/lb and its darns near 2 pounds.

I never weighed them before, but my gut tells me that an entire rotating assembly (damper, flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, and rings) of an FE has to be significantly more than a Windsor. I know you can buy light weight stuff - especially if you have deep pockets. So an apples to apples comparison is appropriate.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by olddog

A 100 grams difference times 8 pistons is 800 grams - divided by 454 g/lb and its darns near 2 pounds.

I never weighed them before, but my gut tells me that an entire rotating assembly (damper, flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, and rings) of an FE has to be significantly more than a Windsor. I know you can buy light weight stuff - especially if you have deep pockets. So an apples to apples comparison is appropriate.

My point exactly.


.

[Barry_R]

I build as many FEs as about anybody by now. And we've done a bunch of small blocks.

The power will be determined by cylinder heads and displacement - and little else. I think I've proven that is numerous Engine Masters Challenge entries where my FE package has always been very competitive with the Cleveland headed entries and has beaten the occassional rare inline Windsor headed entry.

The cosmetics are where the FE entry wins. These cars are rarely true race pieces where the last increment of weight and power take precedence over everything else. They are purchased for the elusive "cool factor" - the FE simply looks correct. It's the same reason a Harley has a V-twin, the reason a Rolex is cooler than a Timex even if both keep time.

While limitations were there in the past, there are essentially no limits in performance for an FE build these days.

FE stroker cranks run 67-70 pounds, with bobweights in the 2200s. I have had some really trick lightweight stuff - destroked with 2.00" journals - that dipped into the 1800s. The FE will come in around 100 pounds heavier than a Windsor.

A Camry will be a more reliable and comfortable mode of transportation. But who cares?