Solid Roller Lifter Failure

[FWB]

Well it happened.....i think......heard a excess lash sound driving, slowly...lol
thought i had an adjuster come loose. pulled passenger side cover and .......
OOPS....3/8 of an inch valve lash on #3 intake, and the adjuster wasn't loose.
peeking into the lifter valley it looks fine, strap still on the lifters.....no ugly-ness....next step i'm pulling the pan to see how the cam faired...
pushrod isn't bent at all, got a couple little dimples from the pushrod hitting the rocker (T&D's) off center but still usable. i'll post some pics as i tear into it......

fred

[scootter]

That sucks!! I had one of mine fail with 13k miles on the engine. Pulled the drain plug and half the roller was stuck to the magnet. After pulling all the lifters etc, over half of the lifters, had slop in the rollers!!
Scott

[JustOne]

Same thing happened to me earlier in the year. I had an adjuster back off, thought I had gotten away with it and a few hundred miles, more slop than normal. I caught it really quick, but it still hurt the cam.
Lucky for me I still had all of my hydraulic stuff and just put it back together with the original stuff instead of another set of solid lifters and cam.

Justin

[COBRANIP]

Who is the manufacturer of the lifters (if you don't mind me asking) and how many miles or hours do you have on the engine? And, while I'm being nosey, what is the valve lift on the cam?

Thanks,
John

[Hotfingrs]

Ruined two engines using CompCams solid roller lifters. Switch to Crower, after extensive taking to company, and have been happy ever since.

[RICK LAKE]

FWB Fred Some lifters you can sneak out others you can't Guessing you have the later. Before you pull the pan, just get a dial indicator and rotate the motor once. check the height of the lifter in that bore with the others.
I know you guys love solids and at one time I did too. There are some tricks to help get more oil to this area
Groove the lifter bore with a .010" groove to direct oil down to the camshaft roller contact point.
Run without a windage tray. IMO this stops alot of spray from hitting the camshaft area.
Go to Hydros, You can get a camshaft with .650" total lift and still be streetable.
Lucas additive for oil. It cost a couple of HP but stops dry starts and sticks to parts. The important thing is to add this with hot oil and pour it slowly into motor. Then go for a 2-5 mile road test.
Oiling system, again IMO HVHP oil pump with a min of an #80 pound spring in the pump. I don't believe that at idle the pressure are enough to protect the upper end parts. I run between 1-1.5 of extra oil in motor and have a 3 quart accusump for steady pressur when racing. This is important for spirted street driving too. Long sweepers will kill oil pressure unless you are overfilled. Remember that what you see at the Gaue of your car is at the filter housing, the beginning of the oil trip, not at the last rod or lifter bore in the heads or rocker shafts. There is a 20-30 psi drop depending on how loose the bottom end is. If you are running limiters in the heads, .080" is save with erson rockers, Have seen blueing when running 60# psi.
If you have to rebuild the motor, look at dropping the rpm range, extending the motor life and still having alot of road time with less or little maintainance. Hydros do work, KC racing makes custom camshafts that will give you plenty of power and a nasty idle if wanted. If setup right, 6,200-6,500 rpm is doable with the correct lifter preload on the lifters. Rick L.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by FWB

Well it happened.....i think......heard a excess lash sound driving, slowly...lol
thought i had an adjuster come loose. pulled passenger side cover and .......
OOPS....3/8 of an inch valve lash on #3 intake, and the adjuster wasn't loose.
peeking into the lifter valley it looks fine, strap still on the lifters.....no ugly-ness....next step i'm pulling the pan to see how the cam faired...
pushrod isn't bent at all, got a couple little dimples from the pushrod hitting the rocker (T&D's) off center but still usable. i'll post some pics as i tear into it......

fred

How old are the lifters Fred?

[madmaxx]

How much spring pressure?

[patrickt]

This subject seems to keep coming up. About five years ago one of the big name manufacturers came out and said that you had to replace them every so many miles (I'm thinking it was 7.5k, or maybe 10k, but can't remember for sure). Then I thought there was some sort of improvement made and that requirement was "taken away" -- again, I can't remember that for sure either.

[philminotti]

It does keep coming up. I thought the general concensus was that the Crower lifters with the HIPPO option went a long way towards making solid rollers live on the street. Sorry to hear about your motor Fred.

[FWB]

To answer some of the curiosity.....i have about 6500 miles on the cam and lifters. .670 lift 251lbs at the seat...they were of course comp cams...and they do pressure feed oil to the roller. i had planned to change them out after this season.

Rick, keeping my reply short....KC built this motor and dynoed it in 2006.
i have plenty of oil pressure at idle 80+, it is his custom grind....grooving the lifter bores is bad news for a hydraulic block. the oil pressure drop would kill the motor. honestly Rick i'm not a newbie to the FE. been there done that since 1976.......roller lifter failure does not occur at the contact point but rather in the needle bearings the roller rides on. lucas oil additive is a band aid for bad oil. use good oil and its not needed. 6500 miles isn't unusual for roller lifters....especially comp cams....hehehehe.
what really rubs me....is a little voice told me to change the lifters last year when i re-did the intake gasket........i had a 1980's flashback of soft cams from comp the cams were dropping like flies.......should have listened to myself.....

in any event until i tear it down its all conjecture at best....i may be fine on the cam.....at least thats what i tell myself so i don't freak out yet......
but i do know that i will be using either crower or isky for my lifters.
i am oiling thru the pushrods so the choice of type of cam is limited.
i will probably put another solid roller in

[ItBites]

Solid rollers are bad on the street. Low RPM (idle/cruise) does not get enough oil into/out of the needle roller in the wheel to cool the needles. The needles overheat and begin to spall material under load. The HIPPO lifters have an EDM passage that directs pressurized oil at the needles and keeps them a lot cooler. Even then, they have a more limited life than hydraulic rollers. I have had Crane hyd rollers in one engine for 20 years (no exageration) with not one issue. The hyd rollers last longer. The hyd rollers in my 10.5:1 CR 540cid engine produce 700 HP and 700 TQ - hyd rollers really work.

[madmaxx]

Is it lubrucation or the valve lash that hammers the rollers?

[FWB]

Originally Posted by ItBites

Solid rollers are bad on the street. Low RPM (idle/cruise) does not get enough oil into/out of the needle roller in the wheel to cool the needles. The needles overheat and begin to spall material under load. The HIPPO lifters have an EDM passage that directs pressurized oil at the needles and keeps them a lot cooler. Even then, they have a more limited life than hydraulic rollers. I have had Crane hyd rollers in one engine for 20 years (no exageration) with not one issue. The hyd rollers last longer. The hyd rollers in my 10.5:1 CR 540cid engine produce 700 HP and 700 TQ - hyd rollers really work.

yep they are......my only two choices with the heads and rockers i have is a hydraulic roller or solid roller.....decision is yet to be made.....when you only have time for 2500 miles a year in the car so a set of solid lifters lasts over 4 years, i don't mind that, i now have a baseline as to longevity. if i use a better lifter and change them out every 6000 miles i should be fine.

[PANAVIA]

We went to a Hydraulic Roller Lifter for FE's from Comp and never looked back. -- putting a couple of motors together with them now. --

Steve

[RICK LAKE]

FWB Go to .904" dodge lifters in your FE block. Like you have been involved since 73 at racing at e-town. The other thing I have found is that the greater the lash, the faster the lifter turns to junk. IMO oils today are too slippery, not enough cushion of fluid and cause roller in the lifter to slide and not roll over the camshaft lobe. Lucas is a quick fix in some cases and a long term running in my case. 12 years with rollers and no problems.95% racing. The other thing is lash of the hydro roller, .015" on the plunger. Can take this setup up to 6,500 rpms without valve float. Someone has come out with limited hydro rollers, I have a dip of about 40HP that starts at 5,700 rpms and then goes up again to 6,200. the power starts to return. Beehive springs help this also.
As far failures too much lash, too thin of oils, too slippery of an oil, or rev limiters being banged all speed up the failure of solid rollers. High spring pressures too. Good luck with your repair. Rick L.

[FWB]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

FWB Go to .904" dodge lifters in your FE block. Like you have been involved since 73 at racing at e-town. The other thing I have found is that the greater the lash, the faster the lifter turns to junk. IMO oils today are too slippery, not enough cushion of fluid and cause roller in the lifter to slide and not roll over the camshaft lobe. Lucas is a quick fix in some cases and a long term running in my case. 12 years with rollers and no problems.95% racing. The other thing is lash of the hydro roller, .015" on the plunger. Can take this setup up to 6,500 rpms without valve float. Someone has come out with limited hydro rollers, I have a dip of about 40HP that starts at 5,700 rpms and then goes up again to 6,200. the power starts to return. Beehive springs help this also.
As far failures too much lash, too thin of oils, too slippery of an oil, or rev limiters being banged all speed up the failure of solid rollers. High spring pressures too. Good luck with your repair. Rick L.

ok rick read the post your responding to.......its 76 not 73....and i will sell the motor before i have to tear the whole puppy down and bore out the lifter bores for mopar lifters.......hehehe mopar lifters....rick damnit read the post your responding to maybe you won't have to write a novel on every reply......why the hell would you use a mopar lifter and bore out the lifter bores when there are plenty of .875 lifters that can be used in the ford lineup....i guess if you don't read posts before you repond you'l never see this anyway.......ok i'm moving on.......too much jaw flapping over a subject that is still conjecture, since i didn't take it apart yet...

[Ford428CJ]

Originally Posted by ItBites

Solid rollers are bad on the street. Low RPM (idle/cruise) does not get enough oil into/out of the needle roller in the wheel to cool the needles. The needles overheat and begin to spall material under load. Even then, they have a more limited life than hydraulic rollers. I have had Crane hyd rollers in one engine for 20 years (no exageration) with not one issue. The hyd rollers last longer. The hyd rollers in my 10.5:1 CR 540cid engine produce 700 HP and 700 TQ - hyd rollers really work.

I ran a solid roller 428 11to1 for 10+ years out on the street for an every day driver! No issues at all. I didnt restrict the oil to the lifters. I used all Crower (they where the old school lifters) and it never let me down. I feel that part of the problem can be in the set-up. Or I'm just lucky LOL.

[FWB]

i think the key word here is Crower........

i'm restricting the oil not because of the solid lifters......i'm restricting oil so my valve covers don't fill up with oil. i'm oiling up the pushrods....without the restriction, it actually sucks the 10 quart pan dry.....

it seems i have had no troubles either over the years...except when the words "comp cams" become a part of my vocabulary.

if i ever get the time to actually work on the car, i will be installing crower lifters. i run their connecting rods in another motor and hands down they are the creme of the crop of engine parts