FE rocker adjustment and it still ticks - now what

[blykins]

Want me to run up and take a look at it?

[Grubby]

Definitely not a header leak. The sound is quite audible through my stethescope when probing along the tops of the rocker covers.

I notice it through the fender vents when it is idling, and it can be somewhat heard while driving at low speed.

The sound maybe like Patricks. Depends where the microphone was. If I stand half way between the engine and the exhaust it sounds about the same. Keep in mind my car is not a solid lifter.

Do FEs have noisier valve train than other V8s? If yes then it is likely normal.

I think I have the drain back trays. Are they visible in the pictures?

Brent - I was thinking about driving down to see you. If I can't come up with something it may be time for a nice late summer drive to Louisville.

Guys - It is apparent there are two schools of thought on FE oil pressure. I am discounting that as a problem at this point.

I am a very experienced mechanic - just not with Fords. ASE master tech in the mid 90s while working as a GMC Truck engineer in Pontiac MI.

John

[FWB]

Originally Posted by Grubby

Guys - It is apparent there are two schools of thought on FE oil pressure. I am discounting that as a problem at this point.

I am a very experienced mechanic - just not with Fords. ASE master tech in the mid 90s while working as a GMC Truck engineer in Pontiac MI.

John

all the FE's i've had and built. i never....i mean never,.. had any motor under 100k miles have less than 35 lbs of OP at idle unless i had a rod bearing that was on its way out or too much clearance in the cam bearings. if your not finding any component failure then pull the rocker assembly and check for issues, badly worn rocker tips, bent pushrods..... the lash won't be different if you don't mix up the pushrods. thats the easiest to check....if i found nothing.....i would pull the pan and see if the pickup was too close to the bottom( are there any dents in the pan) while it was off i would put one of "pumpbuilders" bluprinted HV oil pumps in it to be safe. if i found factory rods in the motor, i would pull #7 rod cap and look at the bearing. and based on the total ford components in the heads you will probably find a ford reciprocating assembly

if you believe the 15 psi is ok you will loose your motor. this is not a small chevy. when i race a FE i use high pressure and no less than 80 psi at idle with factory journals is acceptable. 100psi at 3000rpm and up.

The "two schools of thinking" on oil pressure is right and wrong with ford cranks and rods.

yes, you show the trays in the rocker pic....if you have an audible tick with hydraulic lifters there is an issue....unless someone built this motor and put damn rhodes lifters in...they are noisey...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FWB

... if you're not finding any component failure then pull the rocker assembly and check for issues, badly worn rocker tips, bent pushrods..... ... ....if i found nothing.....i would pull the pan and see if the pickup was too close to the bottom...

First, take a drive and visit Brent for a fresh pair of ears. Maybe this is all nuthin. The truth is, most FEs run forever without much maintenance at all. If you do pull your rocker assembly, go ahead and get rid of the restrictors, like Jerry suggested. You've got nothing to lose on that and if oil drips out the sidelpipes after a high rev, or if your oil usage jumps way up then you know you're putting too much oil up top and you can tweak the restrictor size -- if the noise goes away and that's what you're experimenting for. I don't think pulling the restrictors will change your oil pressure, but you can watch that as well. Now that's a great plan.

[Grubby]

I am pretty certain the bottom end is Chevy sized rods.

Jerry - What noise is the extra oil to the top end quieting? Do the springs make noise? It should be pretty easy to go in and remove the oil restrictors.

Are the drain trays there to hold oil and keep the springs submerged?

John

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Grubby

I am pretty certain the bottom end is Chevy sized rods.

Jerry - What noise is the extra oil to the top end quieting? Do the springs make noise? It should be pretty easy to go in and remove the oil restrictors.

Are the drain trays there to hold oil and keep the springs submerged?

John

See: 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum: Drip Rails?

Maybe Jerry wants you to try and remove the drip rails -- he didn't say. I don't know; I don't have them as Erson's are designed not to use them.

[Jerry Clayton]

The oil drain trays return oil to the valley evenly front to back instead of just at the front and back of the head. Originally the FE's were all solid lifter engines with NO oil to the tappets so this spread oil out over the tappets and bottom ends of the pushrods.

The oil to the top of the engine is fed up by #2 and #4 cam bearing area to a groove over to the headboltand then to the rocker shaft stand--these grooves used to get sludged up with poor oil change habits, and then excessive rocker arm, valve tip and because of low supply, the low drain back killed off tappet rotation, then cam lobes,etc.

A common way around the plugged up supply was a set of steel lines that went from the oil pressure port up and under the valve cover and into the end of the rocker shaft. This was a system actually patented by a friend of mine.

Your pics show that your shaft assy aren't set up properly as the washer/springs are not installed in all locations and I would even bet that the shafts are upside down---those rocker arms wore severely with higher lift cams and springs over the valve tip which was a source of noise when they would slip sideways over the valve tips--also the clearance of the rockers to shaft needed to be oiled pretty heavy to prevent wear, insure that oil went to valve tip and pushrod . In the old days noone ran 10 wt oil in these engines--it was always 30 + and the pressure in the FE was so high that they relieved the oil pressure at the end of the system--the spring in the pump relief was just to prevent filter blow out on cold starts.

Your car has several problems---I would suggest doing the bottom end to correct oil pressure problems, and get a set of Erson type roller rocker set up to bring the top end up to modern standards.

IOf you will run the engine with the valve cover removed you will see that you don't have any oil and you can then pour a can of oil over the rocker assy and see that the noise goes away--

By the way you should be wearing earplugs driving a Cobra, not a stehoscope!!!!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

If you will run the engine with the valve cover removed you will see that you don't have any oil...

Well that's a pretty easy test. Usually there's a ton of oil up there. John, trot out to the garage and do that tonight before you go to bed.

[blykins]

The bad thing is that if it's really restricted that much, he'll have to pull the heads to pull the restrictors out. In his first initial posts, he mentioned that the restrictors were in the deck. Some builders drill and tap that passage in the deck of the block, while others just restrict the passage under the rocker stud itself.

I second(third, fourth?) the vote to run the engine with a valve cover off. But since it only happens when hot, I'm leaning towards excess clearance somewhere.

As for the oil pressure issue, I've had FE's that I've built run about 25-28 lbs while idling with a HV pump. It's not an issue as long as they build oil pressure when the engine starts gaining revs.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

My thoughts on this is you probably have a HV oil pump and that is scavenging the pan too quickly, dropping the oil pressure until it returns to the pan. I had a similar issue until I replaced the HV oil pump with a stock oil pump. My oil pressure went from 60 psi to 50 psi on startup, and now remains at 45 psi hot. You can add a couple extra quarts, but that's just a band-aid. I've found that these FE engines can be quirky at times. Good Luck.
PS. The oil pump only took an hour to replace.

[Barry_R]

A few thoughts - in no particular order

15 pounds at idle is not going to hurt anything ever. As long as it goes up smoothly with RPM you're gonna be fine. That is not the problem.

10W-30 oil is not the problem.

Not enough oil in the pan is not likely to be the problem - not at idle for sure.

Pulling the valve cover is a very good idea - but you should see signs of plenty of oil dripping and draining back even without a running engine.

You want at least a full turn of lifter preload on a normal FE - this ain't a small block - the adjuster is direct on the pushrod instead of running against a fulcrum. Sounds like you're already there.

The original builder looks to have taken the effort to shim rockers for position. Looks fine to me, but I obviously cannot see that everywhere.

My bets - for what they are worth:
Debris in lifters
Worn rockers and/or shafts (they are 40 years old)
Broken or really weak shaft springs - I rarely use those anymore
Pushrod to intake contact - not likely with stock parts - but he did shim rockers over

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

A few thoughts - in no particular order

15 pounds at idle is not going to hurt anything ever. As long as it goes up smoothly with RPM you're gonna be fine. That is not the problem.

My bets - for what they are worth...

If Bob & Peter won't hire me to work at ERA, then I want to come and work for Barry R.

[Grubby]

Barry - thanks for the great info. I will go down the list this week. I am sure there will be a follow up question or two.

Patrick - we seem to have something in common. I dream of working at ERA. They ruined me when I toured the shop. Working for Barry is a close second.

John

[Keithc8]

I would take apart the complete rocker arm assembly and look at each rocker. Check it for wear on the inside and then check the tip of the rocker for waer. Both of these will cause problems. Is the shaft that the rockers run on wore or cracked. Are the oiling grooves turned the correct way.
This is one reason geting new shaft and rockers is always a good ideal. Make sure that you are not losing oil around the four stands where they bolt to the heads. Look for to much oil loss around all of the parts. I assume that this is a completely adjustable rocker arm system. We still like to get the valve stem heights similiar as well. I would assume that you have no valve spring coil bind. Just all possible questions and I do not know what all you know about engines.
If you have fairly high spring pressure the lifter will have a harder time staying pumped up with thin oil so heavy oil may by the answer just depends on the short coming on the design.
Good luck, Keith Craft

[Grubby]

I ran the engine w/o valve covers and probed for noise. I found 3 areas of interest. I turned the adjuster down another 1/2 turn just on those - no change. Then I backed off just over 1 1/4 turns (from my starting position) - same sound but louder.

There is plenty of oil flowing.

Disassembled the rocker shaft assemblies. Shafts are oriented with oil holes down. No cracks visible. There is certainly wear on the bottom of the shaft. It can not be felt with finger nail and I measured about .0005" less in those areas.

The rocker tips and balls all show some wear but not much. The ID of some of the rockers does show some fairly heavy wear. Oddly, it was not the noisest that had the most wear. Nothing showed signs of blueing.

I inspected each push rod. No contact to intake or anything else.

The distinct tick is in two lifter/rockers at the very ends of the shaft (front and rear) on the right bank and the lifter/rocker at the very end of the shaft (rear) on the left bank.

My guess is 3 lifters that do not pump up all the way and contributing overall noise by some wear in the old Ford rocker shaft assemblies. What do the experts think?

John

[blykins]

Gummed up lifters are certainly an option...

If you want to get brave, you can pull the rocker assemblies off and fish the possibly offensive lifters out through the larger holes in the intake with a magnet.

[RICK LAKE]

Grubby John I think the ends of the shjafts are flexing without end supports when hot. The shaft could be cracking and you wouldn't see it until they break. Yes I have been through this. Get a set of end supports. You said the noise is only at the ends. This is where my shafts braoke at the last bolt hole through the shaft. Some one sells them here. If you can, pull the noisy lifters apart and clean them out and reassembly. Lubed them with pre lube and drop back in the correct holes. I wonder if the shafts where unhooked. When my motor sits over the winter, I loosen the shafts to release the valve springs. This takes the pressure off the lifters. Peoblem with this is when I was running anti pump lifters(non rollers) I had to remove all the lifters and drain the oil. Then reinstall them and set the rockers assemblies to torque spec. Fire up the motor and the lifters adjusted. If I didn't do this the valves wouldn't close and motor ran like crap. These where crane antipumpups from the late 90's. This could be the noise. Run the motor again and put pressure on the end of the shafts and see if noise is better, worst, or the same. It could be just the rockers, swap them around and see if the noise moves. If it does, its rockers, if not lifters or shafts. When shafts off, take straight edge and make sure that all 4 mount locations are flat, if not may have to shim them. Rick L.

[patrickt]

John, if it was me, I'd toss those old rockers and shafts, pull the lifters out with a magnet and string and replace them with new ones, then check with Barry and see if he has one last set of Ersons sitting over in the corner. If not, go with Harland Sharp Harland Sharp S4006BKE - Harland Sharp Shaft Mount Roller Rockers - Overview - SummitRacing.com and you're out of this mess for under a grand.

[blykins]

For the flat tappet and hydraulic roller stuff, I use PRW rocker arms. They come with hardened shafts, billet rocker stands, end stands, studs, the whole nine yards. Very affordable and very nice quality. A set of their aluminum rockers would run around $470. Even comes with a pushrod length checker.

I'm going to stick a set on my own FE when it comes time.

I do agree with Rick, end stands are a plus, especially with modern spring pressures.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

... Very affordable and very nice quality. A set of their aluminum rockers would run around $470.

Yes, but the more he spends on his Cobra, the more that will "trickle down" and help the overall U.S. economy. By "dropping additional coin," John helps us all. Thank you John for your support.