Eagle 4.250 Cast Crank Broken

[tirod]

That may be - the overall impression is the sum of all the incidents.

And that has happened in the past, with American manufacture, too. How the company exerts their view of inspection and manufacture is what counts. Insist on top flight quality, and you get it.

The Iphone isn't plagued with quality issues. It's entirely made in China. Point being, if you feel Eagle has quality issues, I have little to say in denial. Beating on China, however, is a very lame point when someone has to beat on a Chinese made keyboard, thru a Chinese made circuit board, and view the results on a Chinese made LCD display.

It's not about China, it's about who's quality is being purchased. Anybody can make junk. Americans can do it just as well as the Chinese, and the impression lasts for a long time. Ask someone who bought a Dodge in the '70s - and may I point out they were union made, too? All those quality made union built American made cars ran the consumer off to the Japanese.

Trying to squeeze too much profit out of the system is the problem, not what nationality. It's not China - it's the mindset of the specific Corporate culture. In this case, Eagle comes up a lot shorter than Scat. That can change, it has to be constantly monitored. There are no guarantees.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by tirod

And that has happened in the past, with American manufacture, too. How the company exerts their view of inspection and manufacture is what counts. Insist on top flight quality, and you get it.

Like you, I put this purely on Eagle-not China. Since Eagle's name is on it, it's incumbent on them to require their contractors (in any country) to meet a quality standard that Eagle can represent. And pay that contractor according to that standard.
A complete rethink of their QC standards is required. Don't think many guys will ask builders for Eagle stuff except for the lowest budget and performance requirement builds. That applies to every other high performance engine being built-not just our little FE world.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

While this may not be a good comparison,FE vs. small block parts, I'll give it a shot anyway........
I built my first race engine, 331 stroker with a 4340 forged Eagle rotating assy.,13.5 to 1 compression, 7,000 rpm chip in the MSD box....Ran this engine hard for six race seasons, running water temp in the 180 to 190 range which is fine, but my oil temp was always in the 240 to 260 range,which is very high......other racers told me that engine should not have lasted one season much less 6!!!!!!
Took it down to freshen it up and the bearings showed normal wear for it's use, put it back together and after about 3 hours of run time, it broke.....TOTALLY my fault, my screw up when assembling the engine.....
The crank had a 2 marks on one rod journal,other wise looked fine....
I bought another identical Eagle rotating assy. to build my new race engine and have been happy with it also.......
Kept all the old parts, a year later decided to build a 331 for a street car,about 400 HP, so I brought the crank to a local shop and had them check it out......the crank was perfectly straight and the marks polished out of the journals, they check all the journals and said they were all within specs and everything looked fine, so I'm in the process of building another engine using the crank and 6 of the 8 rods from the original engine.(2 rods were damaged beyound use)(found 2 more rods to replace them).....
Granted I would be hesitant to re-use these parts for a high compression/high rpm race engine, but for a 6000 rpm/400 HP street engine, I think they'll do just fine.........
The way the FE cranks are machined and the way the small block cranks are machined may be different, I don't know, but soo far, I've been happy with my Eagle parts......
As others have said,it doesn't matter where something is made, what matters is how it's made and with what components it's made with and the quality and quality control of the part that counts......

David

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

While this may not be a good comparison,FE vs. small block parts, I'll give it a shot anyway........
I built my first race engine, 331 stroker with a 4340 forged Eagle rotating assy....

It's not a good comparison-not because of FE vs Windsor but because yours is forged.
5+ years ago, my experience was that Eagle's cast and forged lines for Windsor, LS, BBC and Mopar were markedly better quality than now. Few came back as warranty claims due to crank failure.
Now all the major builders on here are quick to provide Scat and other brands and shun Eagle. They don't want come-backs either.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

It's not a good comparison-not because of FE vs Windsor but because yours is forged.
5+ years ago, my experience was that Eagle's cast and forged lines for Windsor, LS, BBC and Mopar were markedly better quality than now. Few came back as warranty claims due to crank failure.
Now all the major builders on here are quick to provide Scat and other brands and shun Eagle. They don't want come-backs either.

O-K: I haven't really kept up with their parts from years ago as compared to their recent stuff..........

David

[D-CEL]

I think we should also recognize a second major contributing factor. The MFG does not fully understand the key characteristics of the product. That is to say, what makes a “good” crankshaft. I believe US mfgs learned this lesson many years ago.
Unfortunately, when cost is a driving parameter, quality is usually the first casualty. Few in the MFG world see QA / inspection as a “value added process, even after a catastrophic failure.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I built my first race engine, 331 stroker with a 4340 forged Eagle rotating assy.,13.5 to 1 compression, 7,000 rpm chip in the MSD box....Ran this engine hard for six race seasons, running water temp in the 180 to 190 range which is fine, but my oil temp was always in the 240 to 260 range,which is very high......

Just a tech question David; were you running very tight bearing clearances for a race motor? I know you said the bearings looked good but then why high oil temps?
Well, maybe not too high for 7K+ RPM?

[glenview289]

Quality Control is not, and never has been considered as value added. It is engineerings function to first design a component for a specific function that meets the requirements of the device. Engineering must then develope a manufacturing process that is capable of producing the required part every time. It is Quality Controls job to audit the process to ensure that it is in control, stable, and continues to produce good parts. FMEAs are done when bad parts or a catastrophic failure occurs to determine the root cause of the problem. The better manufactures do all this work up front at an additional cost which goes into the product. Non OEM manufactures are only making parts and therefore are cheaper because they are not privy to the engineering or IP that went into the part. This manufacturing issue is not specfic to any National boundary. It is the responsibility of the company whose name is on the part to ensure that the design requirements are being met, where ever in the world they are being produced.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Just a tech question David; were you running very tight bearing clearances for a race motor? I know you said the bearings looked good but then why high oil temps?
Well, maybe not too high for 7K+ RPM?

I don't remember the exact bearing clearances, that's been 7 years and a few engines ago, but they were not on the tight side, I think more in the recommend range........
Looking back on it all, I think there were 2 or 3 things that contributed to the high oil temps.....Even though I tried 3 different oil coolers the high temps could be becasue of the location of the cooler and the protective screen I was using in front of it,blocking off some of the air flow......The 3 different oil coolers were of different types and sizes, yet the oil temp never varied more than about 10 degrees regardless of which one was on the car......
Anyhow,some of the top running cars in the Vintage class told me anytime their oil temp goes past 230, they pull off the track and park the car!!!!!
We normally run 15 to 20 lap races and usually by lap 10 my oil temp was in the 230 to 240 range and slowly kept climbing till the end of the race......the highest I've seen it at the end of a race was 275,I was running in 2cd place, running down the first place car and didn't want to let off........
Be that as it may, on the cool down lap, my oil temp would drop 30 to 40 degrees running the cool down lap in 4th gear at about 2500 rpms.....
I have 2 oil temp gauges,one in the pan and the other on the outlet side of the remote oil filter,after the oil has gone thru the cooler, at the begining of a race the temp difference was usually 20 degrees and would hold at that for a while, then slowly the difference would decrease till the end of the race, the 2 temp gauges were reading about the same......
The crank/rods never showed any signs of bluing or heat and the bearings looked what I would call normal for the useage they saw.....
My rpm range for a race was 3500 rpms to 7000 rpms, so that poor little engine ran for 20 to 35 minutes never under 3500 rpms and always under a load, I normally shift between 6000 and 6500 rpms.....it served me well..
David

[Eljaro]

I have emailed Eagle with pictures of the broken crank and some of the data supplied by Jason.
Lets see what they have to say.
Keith already told me not to expect anything from them.
But you never know, circumstances change and if mayor builders stay away from their products maybe its time to admit that they are doing something wrong and may need to do something, like soothing customers who used their products with fatal consequences

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

My rpm range for a race was 3500 rpms to 7000 rpms, so that poor little engine ran for 20 to 35 minutes never under 3500 rpms and always under a load, I normally shift between 6000 and 6500 rpms.....it served me well..
David

Thanks for a good explanation. I'm suspecting the temps were not too high for your usage. Although 275 would get my attention...
I'm assuming you were/are using synthetic?? Or just straight 50W?

[D-CEL]

Glen,
In my opinion the process at Eagle failed in many key areas only one of which was MFG.
Hopefully, the will do the right thing for the cust. and apply the lesson learned to improve the process and output. Sadly, my experience with Chinese MFG suggests they will not.
But in response to your statements about QC, I would say:
Value added (VA) is typically considered anything extra added to the product or service that does not add cost but gives the seller a competitive edge.
Non-value added (NVA) is defined anything the customer isn’t willing to pay for.
And while I would agree that the classic “final inspection” methodology added no value the mfg process, you could make a defensible case that it was moderately effective system for maintaining customer satisfaction and reducing “resultant failures” and RM type costs.
However, today’s proactive mfg techniques and the application of real time, concurrent “Inspection” of key features by the operator, couple with continual adjustment to center the process output. (this directly adds value by reducing non conforming part costs, spindle down time, etc.) this type of process yields a high quality, low defect part.
I think we would all agree that the perception of a “High Quality part” is valuable and marketable, and as the operator is already being paid the specific QA function does not add cost. With that in mind, I feel it clearly falls within the VA column.

Jason

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Thanks for a good explanation. I'm suspecting the temps were not too high for your usage. Although 275 would get my attention...
I'm assuming you were/are using synthetic?? Or just straight 50W?

Yes, 15/50 Mobil 1 synthetic.....Most synthetic oils are good for temps around 300 degrees and most conventional oils are good for about 230 or so degrees.
I only saw 275 degrees of oil temp once, 90% of the time my oil temp was in the 230 to 250 range.......still a little more than I would like to see,I'd prefer the temps to be in the 220 to 230 range...
and the 275 temp did get my attention,big time, and I thought about it for a few seconds,I could have backed off the gas a little and the temp would probably have gone down some,but at the time,I was in a tight points battle for the track champoinship in my class and I was running in 2cd place with a couple of laps to go and could see the 1st place car and I was gaining on him pretty good.....

David

[Eljaro]

Hi all,
finally got my new KC 482 short block. Pond alloy block, Scat forged crank, Mahle pistons. All seems well and is comming together and will be up and running in a few days.
Email to Eagle asking for some explanation for the breakage of their crank remained unanswered. I included the technical explanation provided by D-Cel but that did not move them to say anything. Not a recomendable parts supplier IMO.

I had been running Evans NPG+ coolant as per advice of ICS when using their copper Titan head gaskets.
As for their gasket, I dumped mine. It leaked oil all the time because it did not seal the surroundings of the cylinders well. Reusable? Definitely not.
All the silicon printed seals around the water passages were deteriorated and made the gasker unusable. Anyway, not a good product IMO.
In my former engine I had a problem of engine temp not beeing high enough. Too much cooling.
I will use a new Stant thermostat (14429) with a really large opening and plan to use a new thermostatic fan switch with a 221ºF on and 212ºF off switching.
That is only for the fan, which under normal driving conditions should never come on (it did so constantly up to now), but only when the engine gets hotter. Evans NPG+ having a high boiling point should be ok without any high pressure radiator cap.

Any of you has experience with NPG+ and can elaborate on experience with it ?

[lovehamr]

Sorry I don't know anything about Evans but I'm glad you'll be making Cobra noises in tunnels soon!

[Barry_R]

Not sure how this interfaces with the other comments and questions.

We recently had our very first cast Scat crank breakage after 6 years. The engine was a 716 horsepower FE in a modest weight 9 second drag car. After perhaps 50 passes it broke off at the first rod journal, taking the main with it along with a bunch of secondary damage. Rods and pistons are/were still perfect with no signs of bearing distress.

I gave it a close but non-expert eyeball inspection and decided that it looked like a fillet radius fracture. Sent the piece back to Scat. They asked a couple questions regarding application and other components used. After citing the race usage and power level as being pretty high for a cast crank, they recommended we go to a steel one for this particular customer - which we did. They also sent a replacement cast crank to us as no charge without challenging us in any way. Perfect customer service in my opinion.

[G_Edmonds]

I recently had an Eagle cast crank break in a stroked LT1. After some searching on message boards I found that it's not a rare problem. Turns out their balanced assembly is not balanced very well. In hindsight it explained the little vibration I could never figure out and also the rear main leak too.
I've been wanting to "re-power" anyway so now I get my wish.
-Greg