ford fe starter index question

[patrickt]

I don't know why that wouldn't just release back -- it doesn't look jammed up to me. Now, I have never owned a CVR starter, and I don't know anything about them other than a lot of FE guys seem to like them. I do know that there are some starters that do not disengage until the engine actually starts -- and if the engine doesn't start it stays engaged and just cranks from that position the next time around. I don't know if that's the case here, but it's something that popped in to my head so I'll just mention it.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench 87 with full engagement you only have 1/2 of the teeth in contact with the flywheel teeth. This is the same problem I had and broke the starter drive. You need FULL engagement. OEM starters have a longer throw than mini starters. You have 2 choice machine the starter housing to get more of the starter gear farther on to the teeth of the flywheel or trim out the back plate to get the extra depth you need. Pat again doesn't know what is going on. Pat BE QUIET!!!! 30 + years of auto work and a lawyer knows everything about motors. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Just buy the OEM starter like you see on mine. Rick, isn't that the easiest answer?

[RICK LAKE]

Pat WHY buy another starter that doesn't have the same power as a mini, about half the weight, about 1/3 the ampage draw to crank, and minis can crank over 16.0 compression motors without any problems because of gear reduction of about 4.40 - 1.0. I don't have any specs on wrenchs motor, do you?? How about on a hot day with a hot soak of that OEM starter and watch it draw 250-300 amps to crank. Oem starter turn one to one and some times that is just too much for the drives ,bushings, or bendix. There nothing wrong with what he is doing, just needs some good info for setup. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Alright Rick, don't have a cow.... He's got a rather mild FE; perfect for an OEM. But, let him grind away....

[wrench87]

ok here is what i found i did not reinstall everything but hoping what i found was the problem. on the quicktime blockplate they have 4 holes up top to go around the galley plugs well 3 the 4th hole does not go to anything , also the gallley plug right above the crank did not have a hole so between this and the rear cam plug was not fully seated on the left side it was holding the block plate away from the block, i drilled a hole for the bottom galley plug and seated the cam plug also the machinist installed silicone over the plug which made it worse, the plate no sits flush on its own. i hope this was it.

my engine is a 72 390 block .030 over 4.250 steel crank , eagle 6.7 rods diamond pistons slight dish 10.0 comp ratio a set of keith crafts stage i heads with a little more work done, edelbrock performer rpm port matched and flowed, comp cam hydraulic roller cam 598-617 lift 230-238 duration 112 lobe center, smith bro pushrods, crane t bar lifters, erson rockers ram aluminum flywheel ram big block chevy clutch my flywheel was drilled for it,
quick time 6056 bell housing, edelbrock water pump, msd 8594 dis i installed light silver and light blue spring with the silver bushing, i have not bought a carb yet going for a 750-850 mech secondary no choke or choke horn would like to run turkey pan but undecided. i have 8.8 irs 373 gears and a tremec 3550 trans with 26 spline input. i know tranny and gears are not ideal but that is what i was running with my 342 engine. steve

[FWB]

Wrench,

if you bought the 5049 CVR starter, that is the correct one for 184 tooth flywheel.

by the pick of the engagement.....it looks like the drive needs to engage more, as you are only 50% engaged.

so after your mod....with the plug or whatever you did....does it engage the flywheel more?

[RICK LAKE]

wrench87 You see the problem with the teeth issue and can fix this. My understanding is that the starter drive doesn't retract? If you push on the nose, does it? You have have the power to it setup wrong. There should be a short wire coming off the starter soleniod. This bolts to the main stud for the battery cable that comes from the starter soleniod on the fire wall. If you have battery power going to the soleniod the drive will stay out and not retract. If you have a test light just check with the battery hooked up to the starter for no power going to the soleniod. This should fix the starter issue. Rick L. PS Wrench87 unless you have the oil pump hooked up and distrubutor in this motor, OIL AND FILTER IN THE MOTOR, DON'T CRANK IT WITH THE STARTER. You will wipe off the prelube and cause a dry start condition. Doesn't matter weather the plugs are in or out of the heads. Please don't do this. Rick L.

[wrench87]

fwb, i have not reinstalled every thing yet to retry, rick the engine is not in the car i was running a mini starter with my small block i did have a solenoid on the fire wall if i remember i used it for a junction for the 12v cable and as a jumper for the ignition start wire?. the engine has been prelubed witha drill on several occasions, if you turn over your engine by hand to set the valves you will scrape off the lube. also the tech guy at cvr said they like to see 50 percent engagement with there starters?. once i put everything back on i will post.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench87 It's your car. 50% is not enough. If I had a camera that could down load a picture I would show you the 50% theory. When have you every seen 50% contact of anything and thought that it was ok?? CVR is in the bussiness to sell starters and parts. Over time the starter will start to wear out the 50% of the teeth and you will see a pattern on the flywheel teeth. Could you ask CVR tech guy this. Is this a direct bolt in for your car, not say motor. Here's the thing 90% of car that came with 4 speds or more, DON'T have block protectors. Only aftermarket bell housing like QT and Lake wood. Like I said if you cut out the block plate where the starter is you will see about a 90% contact of teeth to teeth. This is what you want. It is going to last longer and have a correct wear pattern?? 30+ years of mechanic has shoiwn me alot of poor installation problems that the companies say is normal. Good luck Rick L. Ps if you run MSD you might want to keep a bag in the trunk with basic tools, cap, rotor, coil, and module for break down on the side of the road too.

[wrench87]

rick , you are correct the guy i talked to is wrong they want .400 to .500 engagement the ring is gear is only .385 so you are right it should have full engagement. i really do not want to cut the block plate because the face of the bellhousing is not prefect. i am going to try the other route and macnine the indexing plate. i found out from another forum member that my crank hub is 1/8 longer then stock, my block plate is .120 so your idea would work but you would not have that precision hole to line up the starter and it would just sit on the bellhousing. i also found out my starter drive gear at rest is 7/16 and a factory starter is 3/4 so a factory starter would also work i would rather run a mini? i am torn because i dont know if you can buy a block plate for the quicktime, and i want to see if i could buy a new indexing plate from cvr.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench87 I am gald you finally got the correct answers. The best thing may be is to go back to a oem starter like Pat said if it will clear the area. The surface of the bellhousing should be flat and the mini would bolt up to it and still be 90 degrees to the flywheel teeth. Shelby blocks are different and the mini needed to have some grinding done to fix. Good Luck you are on the correct path. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

The best thing may be is to go back to a oem starter like Pat said...

If everyone would just blindly do as I say, from the outset, without asking questions, the world would be a better place.

[wrench87]

a friend of mine let me borrow a oem starter i bolted it up it covered the flywheel perfrectly and the engagement was great to. although i dont want to run a stock starter afraid of heat soak is this a problem ?. i got a email from keith craft that they have used same parts except for the cvr starter, they use a powemaster i am trying to get a part # they have a lot of different models. thanks for all the help. steve

[patrickt]

Another option is the RobbMc starter. A lot of FE guys think they are about as good as it gets. That gets talked about from time to time over on the FE forum. Here's the page on his starter (admittedly it costs about five times what my POS OEM starter costs): RobbMc Performance Products - Ford FE Starter

[patrickt]

Here are the installation instructions, which includes a nice graphic on the pinion and ring gear backlash. http://www.robbmcperformance.com/ins...nIIstarter.doc

[lovehamr]

All though heat soak can be a problem for any starter, the minis minimize this with gear reduction, it's MHO that heat soak problems with Cobras are overstated. You only have to see how the header pipes in a Mustang w/FE wrap around the starter and compare that to the relatively open area of a Cobra to see what I mean. On the contrary, I believe that most "starter" problems in Cobras are cabling and power management issues rather than the starter its self. I, and I know of quite a few others, are running OEM type starters with no problems what so ever. I also made my own ground and starter cables using #1 welding cable just to make sure that I'd have no amperage drop off. I've gotta say, if it works, it works.

[diegokid]

"The flywheel is still in the same place with or without a block plate and your starter bolts up evenly with the block -- so a block plate that's in between the two is not going to make a difference in the distance."

Yes it will! The blockplate is BETWEEN the starter and the bellhousing. If you remove this section from the block plate it WILL be closer to the flywheel.
Also since this section isn't touching the block it wont effect the bellhousing/block spacing.

Seen it done.

I know this, I just finished replacing the ring gear on my flywheel!

[wrench87]

i know ricklake mentioned this right away, i dont want to do this before i hear back from prestolite who now owns quicktime. quicktime has always had problems with there starter pockets, i remember my first 6056 bellhousing was built to the wrong spec and the starter did not even fit the hole in the bellhousing plate. if they cant help me i have to get it to work myself, the cvr starter is very nice a and would really like to use it if not powermaster has a stock starter that has more juice.

[RICK LAKE]

Patrick T. 13,000+ replys. Didn't know NOTHING about auto mechanic until 2005. Doesn't know or understand reasons for doing things differently. Want the world to follow you blindly, alot more damage would be done. You still don't understand the problem and or why. OEM stater may also come up short on the flywheel for a full contact of the teeth to teeth with a block plate installed. I think following 1 person in the white housing taking the country down a rabbit hole is enough. I would really like to see your ASE certs, GM, Ford, or Dodge certs from all the years you have been working in the auto industry. Even a picture of your scared hands would show all the manual labor you have done under a HOOD of a car. Rick L. Ps 3 others on thread understand what is going on. Have a nice Easter. Rick L.