Adding Zinc to Oil?

[donnieR32]

A buddy of mine and I were discussing the reduction in zinc in modern motor oil. Said for his car (TR6) he planned to combine two different oil types to raise the level of zinc. I never considered putting an additive in with the oil. Instructions from former owner just said to use GTX 10W 40...What say you guys on this topic?

[blykins]

Roller or flat tappet cam? Roller cams don't require anything special....just oil.

[madmaxx]

Buy redline break in additive from summit. Then add enough to get levels where you want. I would never mix oil or viscosities. Some roller engines with high spring pressures would benefit from the extra zinc also.

[Bob In Ct]

Ditto on Madmaxx.
Just for the record, it's the Phosphorous in the ZDDP that protects the engine not the Zinc.
BTW, Redline oils come with 50% more ZDDP (and a whole lot more Moly) than do standard "starburst" oils.

[donnieR32]

Yeah, I was really surprised when he said he was going to mix oils. I found that odd. Anyways, for me cam is Crower flat tappet.

[krkucin]

I just posted on a similar topic trying to figure out what oil to use in my 427FE. Joe Gibbs oil was recommended as it has high content of zinc.

[tirod]

Zinc has a recent history of being deleted from the spec in the SM oil. That's part of the additive package that makes up what it does, and the 5-15% of oil that does "wear out." It acts as a sacrificial friction reducer on bare metal surfaces.

Broken it, it doesn't do much. Cranks are nitrided, and run on bearings, it's new flat tappet lifters and rockers that get most of the scuffing. Nitriding the cam and lifters seems to do more, and ceramic faced lifters apparently don't even need to go back on the same lobe. NASCAR teams have been running those.

Zinc got dropped mostly because it contaminates cat converters. Adding zinc back in for a motor already broken it doesn't do much. There's a lot more discussion over on bobtheoilguy from a few years ago that details a lot of this.

As for mixing viscosities, in terms of actual oil, it doesn't care. A 50-50 mix of 5-20 and 10-30 will result in a net viscosity of 7.5 - 25. It's just oil. The additive package from competing makers might be adversely affected - but until they print full disclosure, we can't tell. I can tell you touring an oil packaging plant in the '70s - Phillips 66 in KC, MO - there were at least 5 competing brands coming off each oil filling machine, and they sorted by brand after they were filled.

Net result -exactly the same stuff regardless of brand. Don't make too much of it.

As for buying high zinc oil, you could run Rotella 10-30 or something for diesel trucks, but a lot of that is still SM rated oil, which means it could be low zinc. You have to read the labels and understand the specs to be sure.

Don't get this confused with the simultaneous sale of badly made chilled iron lifters from the Far East back then. There's a lot of mixed reporting on the whole issue at the time, and home garage reports are a bit suspect over which was the actual cause, a soft lifter or no zinc. Considering most use assembly lubes, the initial scuff in over the first 500 to 1000 miles, and later a failure of a cam lobe, points to the lifter all along. We also have the fad of using high ratio rockers and high spring pressures adding to the load on the lifter face, jumping up the psi quite a bit. Probably too much of a good thing again, which is our habit.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by donnieR32

Yeah, I was really surprised when he said he was going to mix oils. I found that odd. Anyways, for me cam is Crower flat tappet.

You can either run a ZDDP additive to conventional oil or even better, just run an oil like Valvoline VR-1 Racing or Brad Penn that still has the higher levels of zinc. But do one or the other before running the engine.

Search "zinc" here as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

And by the way, to the comment above about zinc not adding much to an engine already broken in, this is NOT the case with a flat tappet. You really need to run an oil with elevated levels of zinc for the flat tappet and solid lifters.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by donnieR32

Yeah, I was really surprised when he said he was going to mix oils. I found that odd. Anyways, for me cam is Crower flat tappet.

I'd use a Brad Penn break-in oil and then continue to use their oil.

[donnieR32]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

You can either run a ZDDP additive to conventional oil or even better, just run an oil like Valvoline VR-1 Racing or Brad Penn that still has the higher levels of zinc. But do one or the other before running the engine.

Search "zinc" here as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

And by the way, to the comment above about zinc not adding much to an engine already broken in, this is NOT the case with a flat tappet. You really need to run an oil with elevated levels of zinc for the flat tappet and solid lifters.

Too late....I'm the third owner of the car and they were just running GTX in it. I however plan to keep this bad boy for a very long time so it's in my best interest to take proper protective measures to ensure longevity. Thanks guys, I will look into using VR-1 or Brad Penn.

Edit: what viscosity are you guys using with either of these two and how often are you having to change it?

[boilerrat]

Bob is correct. You want higher Phosphorous. I use Valvoline VR-1 20W -50 and Comp cams break-in additive at every oil change.

[madmaxx]

Viscosity would be whatever weight gives you an oil pressure reading of 55 psig to 60 psig at 6Krpms when the oil is at 212F. Anything more is not beneficial and may even be detrimental.

$12.00 for break-in additive, $24.99 for 5 quarts Mobil 1 synthetic 10W40 high mileage (has extra zinc and phosporous) than standard.

[madmaxx]

You only need about 1/3 of the bottle of break in additive, so it last 3 oil changes if you use 8 quarts. My engine consumes no oil.

[donnieR32]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Viscosity would be whatever weight gives you an oil pressure reading of 55 psig to 60 psig at 6Krpms when the oil is at 212F. Anything more is not beneficial and may even be detrimental.

$12.00 for break-in additive, $24.99 for 5 quarts Mobil 1 synthetic 10W40 high mileage (has extra zinc and phosporous) than standard.

Synthetic??? My engine has been running on conventional. At least that's what the previous owner advised me to use. I'm pretty sure if I used synthetic it would end up all over my garage floor.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

You can also run whatever oil you want and at every oil change,add a bottle of STP oil treatment from Wally World to your oil change......

David

[kevins2]

From what I've read, having high zinc is only half the solution. Modern oils have higher detergent levels. These detergents "clean" the zinc off metal surfaces. Accordingly, a zinc additive is ineffective. Oils like Joe Gibbs have lower detergent levels as well as higher zinc content.

So, if your engine will benefit from higher zinc levels, it is probably wise to use an oil formulated with it instead of trying to add it yourself.

Regards,

Kevin

[FWB]

Originally Posted by kevins2

From what I've read, having high zinc is only half the solution. Modern oils have higher detergent levels. These detergents "clean" the zinc off metal surfaces. Accordingly, a zinc additive is ineffective. Oils like Joe Gibbs have lower detergent levels as well as higher zinc content.

So, if your engine will benefit from higher zinc levels, it is probably wise to use an oil formulated with it instead of trying to add it yourself.

Regards,

Kevin

absolutely, adding zinc to a detergent oil is a waste of time.

at 60.00 a case for oil with the good stuff in,... what are you really saving by buying regular oil and putting all kinds of additives in?

[tirod]

API SM grade oils are tested to be used in all motors, and the test protocol includes testing in flat tappet motors. They mean, all motors.

Read the specs and understand them, you'll find API is saying SM grade low zinc, low phosphorous oil is OK. They are putting their certification process on the line and their reputation. They did that because - they test it in flat tappet motors.

If that's not enough, they also recommend you can use a diesel grade 10-30.

Zinc and oils for older engines

It really is an old subject, and much ado about very conflicting stories without analysis and back up. Again, the use of imported iron lifters during a sudden shortage happened at the same time - yes, lifters failed. What we know as a fact about that should be verified by actual tests from reputable sources.

I should go without saying that if their tests aren't good enough, then why trust the rating at all? Nonetheless, they still test in flat tappet motors, to certify the oil for all engines.

I didn't completely understand that an hour ago, but now I can at least address it having read the specification. I must not be that old a dog after all.

[Young1]

Southern Automotive that built my FE recommends Valvoline VR1 20/50 with 6-8 oz zinc additive. They run in the cam before delivery. Elgin cam, flat tappets. Will do. Plan on a bunch of happy miles ahead.

[RICK LAKE]

donnieR32 Don this has been an on going issue for the last 10 years when Zinc and Phosphous was drop to smaller amount in motor oil. Your top FE builders where losing motors on break-ins.
Here's my 2 ways, first I run a rolletta 15w-40 diesel oil in the motor. I run it for half the races and change it. I also have 12 quarts of oil for the motor with lines, cooler, oil pan and 3 quart accusump. 15 years same block and no failures of bottom end. 8 years with 452 and 7 years with 484 setup. I have done my own test and have found that adding a bottle of lucas oil suppliment will stop dry starts after motor has been sitting for a couple of days. I run this in all my cars and trucks. Before running lucas used to get rocker noise for 5-15 second if vechicle sat for couple of weeks. Added this and no noise after sitting for couple of months. This is a clinging oil. Does it cost HP, YES. Does it keep my motor quiet, yes. You must pour this in slow to get it to fix with the oil. Here's point #2
Point 2 Accusumps, every car should have one. The motors would last 300-500k miles if no dry starts happened. If for nothing else that startups. Here's why, turn this on and let the oil pressurize the motor and you have 20-40 psi of pressure, no dry starts. The other thing is the rockers and the last things to get oil pressure in the motor. IMO the other problem is the oiling system of some motors. I have seen over the years the farthest rods from the oil pump are the last to get pressure and it is not the same pressure until the system stablize. You read 50-100 psi pressure on the gauge but in truth you may be getting only 10-50 psi in the last section of the motor. There have been test done on SOHC and found that there was a 35-40 psi drop between block and heads. 85% of wear and tear is done on startups. An accusump cost about $400.00 and if protected will last 10-20 years as long as the tube is not damaged. Finding a good safe place on the car is the trick. As far as oil pressures in an FE motor and what they should be with an HV oil pump, that's another thread. Good oil in any brand for high milage and a bottle of lucas. I have and do use EOS from GM too when breakin a new motor. Good Luck Rick L.