How a wiped roller lifter is a good thing..maybe

[FWB]

ok so after staring at my car in disgust for 9 months...hell might even be more, i started to tear into the motor to see what kind of carnage a solid roller lifter has done after it left go.

i had started a thread before but with no followup, since i'm too lazy to find it i'll re-cap.

had to panic stop at an intersection and motor stalled, when i re-started i had that wonderful tap-appity-tap.....so limped home 3 miles, parked it took off the valve cover and had 3\8" lash on #7 intake.

so i knew the roller had said "ok i'm done" fast forward to last week.

took off the intake, which included removing the whole T&D rocker system,

and saw the lifter, looked fine from the top, ground off the strap to remove the exhaust lifter, stuck my finger under there to get an idea of what i had and, no roller.....and no way to get her out the top. so ok, lets see if the cam can actually come out of the car with the motor in......nope, well no without removing a complex shrouding and a very well installed 7 core Radiator, ok out comes the engine.

headers...off, heads....off, remote oil filter....off.....damn how do iget at the bellhousing bolts, they're sockethead cap screws, mother*%$#in as-h$LL#$%^&, ok got them out......now make a aluminum strap to bolt to the frame to hold up the trans when the motor comes out.....

ok engine out.....not easy, had to go at it from the side of the car, nose too long to use the cherry picker that way.

motor on stand, spin the crank looking in cylinders, damn, F'ed up wall, yep debris got caught between the wall and piston, not bad but will need a new piston and a hone.

ok going to load pics.......and i'll post them in a couple so far.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FWB

How a wiped roller lifter is a good thing...maybe

OK, so how is this a good thing...maybe?

[FWB]

Originally Posted by patrickt

OK, so how is this a good thing...maybe?

wow, your impatient...it's coming.....

i should have hired you to be my attorney instead of the one i have.....

anyway, the following pics show the wall, ok yes understandable.
but bearings, very scored, look closely its hard to see in the pic but all of the rod bearings one edge is worn into the copper, amazingly its the side it rides against the crank. the bearing was not clearanced enough to clear the fillet on the crank, now by trade i am a machinist, not an engine builder but i do know to watch out for this when putting a reciprocating assembly together especially with aftermarket cranks from freakin china. so ok here are the pics,
feedback is most certainly welcome...




















link to photo album to see them bigger

http://s622.photobucket.com/albums/t...7%20tear-down/

[FWB]

i do not see how my bearings can look like that when oil and filter is changed every season about 1500 miles, debris could not have gotten by the filter, could it? bypass?
bearing wear isn't even look near the seam no wear pattern at all.

note there is 6500 miles on the build

[madmaxx]

Very unlikely the oil filter bypasses, probably require greater than 9 psig oil pressure, I guess if you started the engine at 0f and floored it.

[FWB]

i'm leaning toward block not being cleaned properly after honing/machining, rogue grit being circulated throughout....

[undy]

Could be an align hone issue. Also, the bearings may not have EVER had the correct clearances. Oil pressure loss elsewhere, seeping gallery plug etc. ...and the list goes on.

Sorry about your problems FWB, chit happens to good people...

Commentary: WTF would anyone want to run a solid roller on the street?? (You listening Kev??) With the many outcomes like this always you're flirting with disasaster.

[blykins]

Me.

Solid rollers work perfectly fine if you have the right lifters...

FWB, you've got a whole lot of issues going on there. It looks like you've had oil pressure problems the whole time, with some trash/debris in the oil.

Did you put the rods on the journals facing the correct way? Chamfered sides go towards the outside, right? Flat sides face each other?

[DanEC]

At least the cylinder walls don't look to bad. Good luck.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FWB

had to panic stop at an intersection and motor stalled, when i re-started i had that wonderful tap-appity-tap.....so limped home 3 miles, parked it took off the valve cover and had 3\8" lash on #7 intake.

so i knew the roller had said "ok i'm done" ...

OK, I remember that. Before that day had you noticed anything funny? Noise, low oil pressure, anything?

[FWB]

No Patrick no issues at all the sudden stop i believe was the shock that did in the roller lifter.


i want to make something perfectly clear......

"i did not spec out this motor."..."nor did i build this abortion..."

i will not get into who did this or that because it doesn't help anyone.

yet to take out the crank, so actual oil PRESSURE issues i can't verify.

pressure was good on the motor up til i shut her down before teardown.

70 lbs cold, never dipped below 45 hot.

block is a marine block so any oil delivery issues will be reflected in the mains
with the rods the wear isn't a lack of oil, it is contamination. The from where is my question.

once it completely apart, i will torque the rods to spec and see if they are actually round, the bearings to the naked eye look deformed radially, and they are 743V clevite, personally i would not have used them.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by FWB

i will not get into who did this or that because it doesn't help anyone.

Yes it does. Namely the guys trying to help you here for their knowledge base and those in the market for an engine builder.
Since you seem not to want to hold them financially responsible, which is fine, at least make it known who they are and what their practices are when it's all fully determined.

[FWB]

chas, i didn't pay for the build originally, i bought the car from a very close friend who had the build done. he spent silly money to get what he wanted. i think it would be wrong for me to hold the builder responsible because it is all conjecture at this point until i measure and investigate everything. believe me i will be the first to call them out on it when i'm sure, but until then i won't sling mud because the builder may be my best advocate at this point to get it straightened out

[Dwight]

Can someone tell me how much oil (%) is bypassed when the oil filter bypass opens?

I noticed that a lot of filters have what I would consider low bypass relief. We run 35 to 70 psi on our street motor and the filter opens at 8 to 11 psi.

I took the second oil filter listed as an example from Summit. I did notice the first one was a K&N with no bypass. Nice, I'll have to check into that.



Brand K&N
Manufacturer's Part Number HP-3001
Part Type Oil Filters
Product Line K&N Performance Gold Oil Filters
Summit Racing Part Number KNN-HP-3001
UPC 024844035080

Oil Filter Style Canister
Height (in) 5.719 in.
Outside Diameter (in) 3.656 in.
Inlet Quantity One
Inlet Attachment Female threads
Filter Bypass Relief Valve Yes
Relief Valve Open (psi) 8-11 psi Anti-Drainback Valve Yes
Smallest Particle Filtered 10 microns
Maximum Burst Pressure (psi) 550 psi
Thread Size 3/4-16 in.
Quantity Sold individually.


Dwight

[Jerry Clayton]

Dwight

It would work out to be a percentage determined by the bypass differential pressure ratio to the line pressure

[FWB]

dwight, the bypass is when it drops to that PSI..... not when PSI goes above,

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by FWB

i think it would be wrong for me to hold the builder responsible because it is all conjecture at this point until i measure and investigate everything. believe me i will be the first to call them out on it when i'm sure,...

Understood and that's all I asked for. No rush to judgement and no witch hunt based on speculation.

[Jerry Clayton]

I see a number of issues in the pics that would lead to this -------and , this is something that maybe many of you should consider in your dealings with engines---------

427 block--probably no oil gallies for the lifters
t & d rockers--probably restricted oil to the top side
no drain back baffles to direct excess oil to the individual pushrod/lifter areas
insuffienct rod side clearance with aftermarket crand and rods--reduced oil flow across bearings and slingoff on the cylinder walls and camshaft
Lunati billect rods--no oil spray hole for camshaft/cylinder walls--

In summary---there are numerous things in the build of this engine that dramactily reduce oil to cam/lifter/cylinder wall that contributed to this failure----

[FWB]

i must say though, the previous owner was warned by me and others around him he was building a motor that was not going to be a friendly street motor. i was privy to some of the correspondence between the builder and the owner, in the defense of the builder, i think he was told he was building a race engine and not something driven on the street 95% of the time. so cam selection was made based on that, and at the final hour a dual plane intake and vacuum secondary carbs were given to them to finish it off...

[FWB]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

I see a number of issues in the pics that would lead to this -------and , this is something that maybe many of you should consider in your dealings with engines---------

427 block--probably no oil gallies for the lifters
t & d rockers--probably restricted oil to the top side
no drain back baffles to direct excess oil to the individual pushrod/lifter areas
insuffienct rod side clearance with aftermarket crand and rods--reduced oil flow across bearings and slingoff on the cylinder walls and camshaft
Lunati billect rods--no oil spray hole for camshaft/cylinder walls--

In summary---there are numerous things in the build of this engine that dramactily reduce oil to cam/lifter/cylinder wall that contributed to this failure----

427 marine block= hydraulic block, has galleys( oiling system like a 390)

T&D ...yes oiling up pushrods has a slight restriction to keep valve covers from filling up, also yes no baffle.....

rod side clearance is at .024, i think is sufficient

all the walls look nice except the one that picked up debris from the lifter\cam, could there be more oil there and would it have washed the debris away before getting in there......maybe..
good point with no oil hole for spray......