FE Block Identification

[hford]

OK, I need info quick!!!!!!!!!!!! Located a block that has 352 cast on front (not uncommon) and above that is 88. The block mikes at approx. 4.130" (428 bore). Block has a 3/8" plug on the right side about the center front to back and just above the pan rail (this is often on a truck block if I'm not mistaken) and the block has external ribs on both sides. There is a "DD" cast on one side of the block. I can find no other casting numbers or letters. I thought that truck blocks either had a mirror image 105 on the front or nothing at all in this area. ANY IDEAS OUT THERE?

[BrianPaul]

It sounds like it may be a 428 service block. The mirror image 105 on the block denotes a heavy duty block. Check the crankshaft webs for additional ribs. This means that it is in fact a heavyduty block. Approx 20lbs heavier than std. If those are not there then it is probably a 428. Hope this helps.

[pop66ltd]

also look in the starter side center freeze plug hole for the 428 casting,sounds like its 428 service block.

[convincor]

any sand scratched letters on the back?(bell housing area)

[Don]

Excellent source, available on Amazon @ $14.00. Car Tech also has a chapter down load feature, but expensive at $4.00 per chapter. The ID documentation is in Chapter 10 & 11

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s..._ID=2933&DID=6

[Barry_R]

Ford used internal and external casting cores with darn near reckless abandon. The mirror image 105 only means it was cast at the MCC foundry. It does not designate heavy duty in any way. The 352 designation is usually - but not always - found on blocks cast at the Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF). The center drain is common and does not mean much. The vertical ribs are most common on later service blocks - but again are not definitive. The 4.130 bore and a sonic check are your best friends here....

[pop66ltd]

not sure where barry gets his info,unlike standard blocks all 105 blocks have additional webbing at the main saddles and some will have high nickel as identified by the big X on the drivers side of the block.to say that the 105 block is not heavy is like saying the 427 is realy a chevy,come on!

[Barry_R]

Not sure where pop66ltd gets his info either. I guess we're even on that count.

There is no such thing as a high nickel FE block. Ford did not use nickel as an alloy agent in their casting process, choosing instead to use chromium and phosphorus. Any nickel that is in the mix would only be an insignificant trace amount, and only identifiable through spectroscopic analysis.

You may find 390 blocks with double webs, 428 blocks with single webs, and any combination you can envision including 390 blocks that say 66-427 on them. E-bay guys get all giddy about those. There was no religion to the use of the casting cores - this is high volume production stuff that was cycled in and out of service as maintenence and demand required.

Relying on external markings to select a non-427 FE block is a route to disappointment.
Living in and growing up in Detroit it is fairly easy to access a great deal of information. You ask the guys that designed and built them.

I've built one or two of these FE motors lately. They might be catching on....

[sideoiler10]

Being an "Old Fart" that used the 427s during the 60s, I know for a FACT that the 427 blocks were cast with "a high nickel content for added strength". Almost any documentation source for the history and credentials of the 427 will include the above statement.

I have heard far too many "experts" acknowledge that fact to suddenly accept the notion that all those people and authors were wrong all those years.

C'mon Barry...might want to check the facts before you start correcting others. Besides, anyone (including myself) can say anything they want...but what they might say does in no way change the facts.

Bob

[Barry_R]

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/...media/263108_1

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/...media/263141_1

These are a couple engineering drawings for 427 Ford engines. Stolen from the other forum without permission for illustration. Please note that the nickle percentage content is at trace percentage levels despite the significant differences in the tensile strength of the referenced samples. Can you provide a comparable source that shows nickle at statistically different levels for any particular block?

[SantaFe66]

hford,

The block you are evaluating should be sonic checked no matter what the bore size indicates. If you have to act fast on this one, I recommend a pass if it's done without the sonic check.

The previous owner might have bored it without the check and then found out the walls were too thin.

I would also trust what you hear from Barry, he's built a bunch of FE motors that last. He's a pro. There are some real experts on FE motors on this site. Trust them.

I would also ignore what you're hearing about 427 blocks since that doesn't apply to what you have.

[pop66ltd]

Barry,i didn't mean to start a argument over metallurgy,i merely state the fact that a 105 block is a heavy application as one would consider all Fe blocks as a group,it having heavy webs and additional cylinder wall thickness it is considered an excellent application over the run of the mill block,also blue prints mean nothing other than measurement,the amount of any component can and has been changed during a particular cast.i merely state what is refereed to by thousands of others as high nickel,its what most Fe or any other enthusiast understands as a good solid metal over the run of the mill casting.watching your post on here you seem to be more interested in making a sale than just chatting about the love of Fe's and cars,so be it.by the way i built 110 Fe's last year so i also know a little about them as well. also have 100s in inventory of every kind as well as 105s,c4ae,66-427,over 33 years of Fe's and Ive seen just about every block ford ever made in this series,so I'm only loaning my experience to the post.not trying to tear someone down,if want an argument im not interested.
ps.nothing in your post helped that man,he wanted real help and all that i was trying to do.

[pop66ltd]

also Barry's link is not a drawing,it is an independent lab report to identify a particular section of what appearers to be an engine block it does not identify what block or if this block was even in production at that time,it is also from 1966,the 105 block was not produced until 1973 some 7 years later.

[Barry_R]

Sorry if I came off a bit snippy. I consider the high nickel stuff to be the fabric of urban legend and will usually try to squelch it when it pops up. Not worth arguing - we can happily disagree and move along. Caveat Emptor and all that...

I do not sell on this forum. Keith sponsors this section and I respect that.

I do occassionally offer technical commentary here - folks can take or leave it as they wish - on the internet all opinions are equal. In 8 years at Holley, and 12 years running Speed-Pro I've been able to pick up a couple tips...

The lab report was from Ford. I just linked page two with the data. Page one indicates that the samples were from 427 blocks.

I have not built 110 FE engines last year - that would be 2 or 3 each day - you definitely have me on volume. It seems to take me a little longer to put one together...

[FFR428]

Originally Posted by pop66ltd

also Barry's link is not a drawing,it is an independent lab report to identify a particular section of what appearers to be an engine block it does not identify what block or if this block was even in production at that time,it is also from 1966,the 105 block was not produced until 1973 some 7 years later.

Pops, with all due respect I agree with Barry's claims. I believe the document in question is for the SK33135 blocks as noted. Pretty sure these were 427 blocks as if you note they were stress releived. Dave Shoe would be the one to correctly answer that since those are his scans. And a few other gentlemen at www.fordfe.com can answer your high nickle question the best. There was a recent discussion on the 72 "P" 427 blocks with some pretty interesting outcomes. SK parts are known as sketch parts and experimental parts. Could be Ford was playing with the foundry mix perhaps for NASCAR or other race programs involved at the time. So correct, that mix would not be for your normal production block. XE part numbers were preproduction parts to be slated for production. Once a production part it gets a C6XX or whatever decade and year is of said item. I doubt Barry's here to just make a sale. As yourself too I'd hope. He contributes to many forums I frequent on a regular basis with "non sales" information. So I think that was kind of a cheap shot. In a perfect world we'd have all the perfect answers. But alas it's not and here we are today. I do hope you take the time to speak with Dave Shoe, Dennis K, John V and a few others about the subject. If it's really of interest to you. Being your in the bizz I'd think it would and could only benefit knowledge. I've also read tensile strength of the 70's blocks may have been lowered. Perhaps the reason for the change to all HD castings. I'd exclude the 427 there. As there was still a race demand for good blocks. True or false?? I dunno. But the high nickle thing in std production blocks has been debated and debunked for years and can be proven to you if asked. It's a common misunderstanding some can see and understand.... and some cannot. It's a known fact the harder the block is to machine the more difficult it is and downtime there is. It was just not profitable for Ford to cast blocks and materials that were hard on equipment. Time is money.

PS...It's also been noted that some Model T blocks have a X mark on them.

All the best...G.

[Fordzilla]

"I have not built 110 FE engines last year - that would be 2 or 3 each day - you definitely have me on volume. It seems to take me a little longer to put one together..."

Actually 110 FEs in one year is one every 3.23 days or about 2 a week.

Just my .02 cents
Regards,

[pop66ltd]

well Barry i must apologize also,i did not mean to come off as harsh either,thats why i hate these forums,there is no emotions to read into and its easy to get the wrong impression,i just think you promoting on every post your engine challenge status is like a little advertising shot,i understand your proud of placement in these challenges and do not in any way try and take something away from your hard endeavors and accomplishments.if i posted all my achievements then i would never get around to what needs to be said,i hope you see where I'm coming from,don't get me wrong,promoting your business in a professional manor is quite alright for all of us that are in the engine building business.that being said i was just pointing to some facts about the 105 blocks,how the 427 blocks came up i don't know.the report is defintly not for the 105s so it should not apply.having built many of these I'm sure you have used the 105s also,that being said i couldn't believe you said they were not of the heavier variety.thats all i was saying,evidently i said it in a way that offended you and i apologize.i just like to keep the post, fair and open, on the topics discussed and stay on the issues.that means when a person asks how to build a 600hp engine ,you or I doesn't jump in and say I CAN DO THAT,they probably already know either one of us can to start with,rather it means we should say heres the answer OOO x 000 will get you there.again let me apologize if i indicated any other position.on a lighter note,i hope your business is as swamped as i am down here,it seems that recession or depression doesn't effect the desire for horse power.oh,and id like to try that engine challenge sometime,looks like it would be fun getting to rub elbows with fellow builders and exchange ideas and the like,i guess thats what you do?or is it a secret society of engine builders looking to take over the world?(lol)either way it sounds fun(lol).talk to you soon.

[pop66ltd]

there goes fordzilla and his math again(lol),its a good thing im not the only builder in my shop zilla or youd have to come and help me out(lol).

[Barry_R]

Context is important. I said "I can do that" but followed with commentary saying that I wouldn't recommend it.

He's right on the math...

365 days divided by 110 engines is one every 3.318 days - assuming no days off all year long. On the other hand, if we assume a six day work week we get 312.85 work days each year no holidays.... This means an engine every 2.84 days. It still takes me a lot longer to screw one together...

As for the Engine Masters Challenge - everybody is welcome to enter. The way to get accepted the first time is to have something cool and noteworthy to run. The way to get accepted from then on is to deliver on the promise - show up on time, run well, and bring a professional looking package. I suppose I should take down the tagline. It's not really necessary anymore.

[pop66ltd]

Barry,i should clarify something on the builds,they are not all complete builds,some are short blocks as well as freshen ups,complete builds were at about 50 for the year and i have several builders in the shop,at any given time there are as many as 10 engines being worked on,so no way do we build an engine in 3 days,takes me that long to have coffee before i start work(lol).i also have the Restoration shop to deal with as well as dyno facility,parts manufacturing and circle track cars,so my plate is plenty full,although Ive got a neat 482 with blower on the stand,but i think you can only be natural aspirated to compete.so maybe one day ill get to come up and play with you guys.if your ever down my way feel free to stop in,i keep cold diet cokes and root beer in the fridge as well as speed channel playing all day long,don't get much work done but its a fun place to hang out.(lol)