445 Build

[Shootnride]

Originally Posted by olddog

The .64 5th is like having a 6 speed with 5th gear missing. Huge step between 4th and 5th gear. If you have much cam, it will make 5th unusable, except on the interstates. There are many threads you can search and read. Most of us who have the .64 wish we had the .82.

I think I may be one of the exceptions to this 5th gear ratio delima. I have a 3.73 rear end ratio and a pretty mild build on my 427/456 SO, and the .64 ratio in 5th gear is perfect for my combination at 65+MPH.

Just my two cents.

Ted

[Mark M]

Great feedback on the 5th gear. I will take a close look at the .82.

[Dwight]

Coach has build three Cobra and one Coupe. In the first three he use a Tremec with .64 5th gear. The last Cobra he bought a Tremec with .84. He runs 3.25 and 3.31 gears in the last three cars. Tires about the same size.
At 70 mph the .84 trannie spins the motor at 2500 rpms. With the .64 it would be 2100. This winter he is going to change 5th from the .84 to a .64 set up.

I run a .64 with small block, 3.55 gears and 26" tires. I cruise at 2000 rpms at 68 mph.
I love my .64

Dwight

P.S. I have over 41,000 miles on my Cobra

[RICK LAKE]

Big torque at low RPMs. Stroker motors, You can get away with this. It's when you drop into the 1,500 to 1,700 rpm range the the motor starts to lug. It's not on the camshaft rpm range yet. It is easier to let the motor run in the sweet spot of torque than push it to run below. IMO if you have to go down 2 gears to accell, there is too much gear ratio differents. As others have said, it's like going from 4th gear to 6th. I have a 6spd richmond with a 3.25 first gear and .68 6th gear. I run now 315/35 17" wheels and 3.31 gears. 1st gear is useless unless I am pulling stumps out of the back yard. Have to shift within 1/4second on accell. Reason for either dropping to a 3.08 or buying a new trans with 2.87 first gear. This is why 2nd gear in my trans is used to start out 95% of the time. Autocross, road race, even on street. You want a wide ratio trans to a certain point but not a large drop from 1 gear to another, like 1-1 to .64.
Another thing and not 100% sure on this, I hear this in my trans at highway speeds, The gears in the trans slapping on cruise, The motor lugs a little and the drivetrain starts to feel each compression of the motor and starts to lug or slap the gears in the trans case.
Last note, TKO has come along way from the t3550,tko5,and the other one. There have been failures and problems with 2nd gear. If the car is not abused, and the power ratings are low. This is a good trans. it's lighter than a toploader iron case and even Richmonds. The design of multi shafts is questionable with the gears trying to separate under loads. Tremec said that the tko500 is good for 500hp and 500torque. The $64,000.00 question is, this is not under constant load. Same applies for the TKO 600. More beef but same question. Richmond came out back in 97 with a 6 spd and said the rating was 450/450. And they are right on the money. I had 448 ft of tork and when hot the trans would not smooth shift like when beening cold. I tryed different fluids and got the same issues. This was driving hard. Normal cruising, no issues. I like the fact of this trans being a 2 shaft setup and not a 3 + shaft. More power, new trans. G-Force, went clutchless, not cheap. The plus power shifting no clutch. faster the shift better the car liked it. Rating 800+ hp and 1,000 ft of torque. Had checked 5 years ago, No damage everything was in perfact shape. ONly down side is it's cost, over 5k for just the trans, no shifter and 5th gear is 1-1. This setup needs to run a 3.07 ratio in the rear or 2.88 for a Jag. Down side is weakness off the 2.88 ratio with a small pinion and bearings. This rearend is rated at 400/400. Higher ratios is back to 450/450. With 30 spline stub shaft axles, you are back in the 600/600 range. Bottom line, everybody here has built their car different. 98% of the motors are happiest running in the 1,800 to 2,200 rpm range cruising. They are at the bottom of the torque band or just inside. Having the motor rev 200-300 more rpms will cost a little gas but allow you to take off and pass in high gear without hunting. The same applies for your normal car or truck you drive to work or trips, you find the sweet spot and it just cruises with out straining. This is on flat land. Good luck Rick. Ps My last motor and trans combo will be another stroker with a 4.375 crank. 498 cubes. Going to end with a super street richmond 5 spd and 3.08 ratio. Top speed, more than I will try. Will need to add a cooler for this setup for the trans. Last side note. Richmond is the same width or thinner than toploaders. TKO's are wider. IF your tunnels is narrow, getting air to cool the trans may be a problem. Last thing, I like the look of either a short straight shifter of the curved one. No a fan of the "Z" one. I do use this to race with because of seat location. Rick I added fans to my car for heat controll. 2 for the motor and 1 for the trans tunnel to move fresh air to the rearend. This helped stop brake fade and boiling the brake fluid. Same fluid also supplies to the clutch, common tank.

[Mark M]

Let me ask since I don't know is there a six speed option other than Tremec that would incorporate the .84 and the .64?

[RICK LAKE]

Mark M Mark jegs and summit both sell 6 spd Richmond trannys. Couple of things you need to know.
Input shaft, If using a lakewood bell housing, A GM input shaft needs to be check and possiblitity cut down .380". If this in not done, major damage to thrust bearing in motor. MUST check this measurement if using GM input. I have no info on Ford inputs. Quickbell housing my be different for depth and clearance of input to pilot bushing or bearing.
The trans mounting location is 1" farther back that most 4 spds. MY ERA was modified for this setup. Shifter is also 1" back too.
Again this trans is limited to 450/450 constant load power range.
Other 6spd are the T-56 trans used in Vipers and Vettes and "F" body cars. Again this trans needs to be beefed up to handle the power load. G-force will build one for your personal need. Again not cheap but 700/700+ load rate. Shifter also has a couple of different locations. It is longer and wider than the Richmond.
Ask Brent Bylkins for a cost. He may beat Jegs or Summit. You know we also have to look at clutches and what you want to run. Send me a phone # and good time to talk in the evening on a PM. The typing is wearing be out. It's alot of info. Rick L. Ps if you goto Jegs, then 6 spd trannies, this will give you breakdowns. Goto spec and get all the info you want for gearing. Stay away from any trans with 3.00 or higher in 1st gear. They sell 2.77 1st gear. This is an old 1st gear 4 spd box we used in the 70's and early 80's for 1/4 mile. We where using 4.56 to 4.88 rearend gearing. It will move any car quick with a 3.55 gearing.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Mark M

Let me ask since I don't know is there a six speed option other than Tremec that would incorporate the .84 and the .64?

My T56 (M12 version) has a .84 5th, and a .57 6th. I have 3.70 rears with 26.5" tall tires. I cruise at about 1900 RPM in 6th at 70 MPH.
Most of the time, if I am under 75MPH, I just leave it in 5th. But on those long highway cruises, 6th is great.

[Mark M]

Visited the machine shop this morning and while we were shooting for .030 over it took .060 to clean it up. We also squared the decks and it is looking good. The C600 truck the motor came out of did not use the factory motor mounts so years of exposure to the elements has played havoc on the threads so they are going to have to be drilled and helicoiled. While they have it we are going restrict the oil to the top end and open up the oil passage from the pump as well as install the cam bearings. Hope to pick up soon.

[blykins]

Mark, I would have them restrict the oil to the top end through the cylinder heads and not the block. If you end up changing your mind on a cam, or lifter, or application, it's easier to just add/remove a restrictor through the head feed than it is to pull the heads and make changes to the deck of the block.

At .060" you're probably ok, but if they have the ability to sonic test, I would.

[cycleguy55]

FWIW, I have a Richmond Street 5 Speed (1:1 5th gear, no OD) behind my 460 / 385 series engine, with a 3.00:1 rear and 26.6" tires. It turns about 2650 RPM @ 70 MPH and launches easily.

[Mark M]

We did do a sonic map so we new how far we could do. My 445 is going to be 450 build with the .060. I will talk to them about the block restriction.

[RICK LAKE]

Mark M Mark couple of machinist thoughts on the build. You have not said which rockers you are using for this motor, Complete roller, this is at the shaft and tip, roller tip with a solid bushing in the body of the rocker, Stock FE rockers? You have not giving a camshaft either, solid lifter, solid roller lifter, flat tappet hydraulic, roller hydraulic, ?? Valve springs for the heads?? Betfore you start cutting off oil to the heads you REALLY need to have these answers? .060" depends ALOT on the clearances of the rocker arm to the shaft. You can get away with a rollerbearing body and tip, not recommended with a bushing setup. You have to remember that there are hole to lube each rocker. The ones closest to the oil supply will get the most oil. The one farest will get the least. Valve springs, No one seams to care but they need oil to cool them. Opening and closing at 40-60 cycles per second produces a huge amount of heat and oil is the ONLY thing cooling them off. Rocker oil shields, do you have a set and are you running them?? They help control the oil and help with return to the oil pan. I have run Ersons for 9 years and can tell you that running .060" turn the rockers blue with high spring pressures. I am not talking about 700 pounds on the valve, We are talking about 450, which is not alot in todays motor world. .080" is safe and this is where I run them. 6,200 rpms and no problems. Other things you might want to look into.
There is an allen head behind where the distributor gear and camshaft gears meet. It's in the block. This is a main supply oil channel. Drill a .010" hole in that allen head. This will supply a small stream of oil to lubed these gears. Other wises they have splash only. If you have any plugs in the oil galleys replace them with allen heads. this means you have to drill and tap the holes for threads. Add a touch of loc-tite so they don't come loose. Oil pump, I hope you are running an HPHV 57. Run a min of a #60 pound spring. 70-80# spring would be better. Have you thought about which oil you are looking to use? Oil pan? which ever one you run, over fill by 1 quart. If you do long high speed turn the oil is very slow to return to the oil pan and pump. Windage tray is a choice thing. Yes I run one that is modified from canton. Small 1/4" hole to help oil drain back into the oil pan quicker.
Last thing and this idea is still out on the table of does it help. I can't see why not with a good oiling system. Guys are drilling a .010" hole that goes through both sides of the thrust bearings in the block. This small spray helps keep the crank shaft from rubbing against the bearing. Also helps with a shifting car, abuses some of the crank shaft beening pushed back and forward when running. This is one of the newer motor modes.
This is the IMO most inprotant thing with an FE, In the old days, 1960-1970's Fe motors that where not in trucks or boats ran a high oil pressure to live. We had better oil with more protective elements in it. If you want the same oil from the 70's, It's about $7.00 a quart. They added zinc and phos-----. can't remember how to spell that word. They also had cleaners in them. Today we are only worried about pollution, and damage to the earth. I agree with this to a point. Old days I have seen many an oil change done in a back yard and it goes into the ground. How stupid can someone be. That same person also has a water well and drinks that water?? Think you get the point. Back to oil pressure, You have a gauge that reads oil pressure inside the motor, Here's where it gets interesting. The pressure reading is at the begining of the flow of oil to the motor, NOT the back of the block that has to wait for it to come. There is also a bled off and it goes to the back of the block. You may have say 60 psi in the front but have only 20-30 psi in the back. This applies to rear main bearings #4, #5 and the back 4 rods, #3,#4, #7,#8. Has the motor wears the clearances become just a little larger. Sam applies for when the motor is cold and it heats up and expands. Iron motor expands about .0008"-.001" Aluminum motor is a whole different animal. John Conley did a test on the FE forum and proved that lossing oil pressure is a fact of about 20 psi, give or take 5 psi pounds. I have had guys here and on the FE forumn tell me that it is not needed to run 100# spring in the motor. I race and run about 75 psi and idle at 35-40 psi depending on the oil temp. I have NEVER seen a motor damaged from running high oil pressures. Low pressure alot. Running 75 is hard on the gears of the distributor and camshaft. IF the setup is done right, there is not quicker wear out that running 100k miles.
We are all trying to give you good ideas that are tested and work. We all build motors different. I have been doing this for 30+ years, Last 15 years on FE motors. I have talked to some of the best old school builders from the 60's. These guys know how to build and make an FE motor live through alot of abuse. Some of the FE racers where running HEMI bottomend in FE blocks. Hemi was stronger and lighter that FE cranks and rods. Today if you are running a FE stoker, You have BBC rods with a 2.20 bearing easyier to get lighter weight, just as strong. Couple of the real FE builts are running 2.00" SBC rods and even 1.88" honda rods. It only takes money.
Good luck with the build. Rick L. Ps off the soapbox. I didn't stay at a holiday express last night either. I do have 40+ years of trail and failures and what works, without going broke. What warrenty are you getting with this motor?? Is the machist doing a dyno breakin? Setting up the Carb? Hope so. More to think about.

[Mark M]

This build process takes a lot of patience. The machine shop had the block for about two months. Once I new what the final bore was I ordered the stroker kit (that was two months ago and I am still waiting). I guess a West Coast longshoreman strike had strangled part delivery. In the meantime a custom ground cam from Bullit has arrived with two pins. Since this engine uses a thrust plate I needed to use the longer 1-1/2" pin. I had to pay close attention to not drive this interference fit pin to deep into the cam since it needs to protrude out far enough to engage the fuel pump eccentric. Yes, I tapped the first one in too deep and vice grips would not pull it out. A friend at the local auto parts machine shop graciously pulled it out. Speaking of fuel pumps will a mechanical fuel pump supply this engine or should I consider an electric?

[blykins]

The different pins are not because of the thrust plate, they are because of the different eccentrics out there....one piece or two piece. You need to figure out which timing set you're using and what eccentric it will accommodate and go from there.

Next time you get a stuck pin, clamp the pin in a vice, then tap on the nose of the cam with a brass drift.

A mechanical pump works just fine.