445 Build

[Mark M]

After much soul searching I decided to go FE in my new cobra project partly because I discovered and dug out an old 361 from a cab over truck on the farm. I torn down the engine and delivered to the local machine shop for cleaning and inspection. The block has been determined to be crack free and I am waiting for a cylinder mapping to determine if it can be bored and stroked to a 445.
I am looking for some cam ideas for this motor. It will be a street car. TKO 600, 350 gears, and 15 inch tires. I would love to see a smooth strong power band up to 6200 rpm and idle at 800 to 1000 rpm. I would love it to be a tigress in the bedroom, a chef in the kitchen, and a lady in public.
I have looked over the forum and there is a lot of info on cams but it appears to be older info.
Thanks for any input.
Mark

[blykins]

Hydraulic roller? Solid roller? Flat tappet?

If you want to try to hit the "have your cake and eat it too" crowd, aim for a hydraulic roller, a 6000 hp peak, and keep some manners down low.

You won't find many off the shelf hydraulic roller cams that work well in an FE. A lot of the cam companies haven't figured out that the more aggressive lobes just don't work with an FE.

My street 445's get a custom hydraulic roller, usually around 236-240 @ .050", depending on what heads you use, and around .630-.640 lift.

[DanEC]

My 459 FE was built for street manners and uses a flat tappet hydraulic cam of 231/236 @.050 with a lift of around .600 (can't recall exactly). It maxed out on power around 5400 - 5500 rpm and has a broad torque curve. It has a pretty good rumpity- rump idle as you can hear in the video in my signature block - but it still drives nice and easy.

Along with Blykins info that might give you some idea of what you need in cam spec depending on where you want max power at.

[Barry_R]

I run a custom hyd roller in a lot of 445 engines with 234/240 at .050 and .594/.598

Seems to peak around 5800 most often

[RICK LAKE]

Mark M You gave us some BROAD basics. Little more info needed for this camshaft. What heads are we running and how much machine work is being done to them? Compression ratio? To get to 6,200 rpms need stronger valve springs, roller rockers, oiling modes. Are you looking for a torque motor or HP? What kind of idle quality do you want? Lopping, smooth, little clicking? What exhaust are we looking at? Headers, yes the biggest thing is the mufflers. Street quiet or rattle the windows? Fuel injection or carb?
By advancing or retarding the camshaft you can move the power around about 400 rpm higher or lower.
A big issue today is the poor engine oils we have and the lack of protection and lubing of parts. A roller lifter of solid or hydro would be a better choice. IMO the days of non rollers are gone.
Here what I have run over the years, 452 FE motor with stage 2 head work. 9.2 compression and a crane 501-533" hydro tappet camshaft. The motor was to have a blower on it but space under the hood was a problem and belts popping off. Ran this setup for 8 years. No problems except or 2 cracked rocker shafts. Power on the dyno. 348hp 448 torque. Could pull stumps out of the ground. camshaft maxed out at 5,800 rpms. Lifters pumped up at this rpm and valve float would happen. I run am HVHP oil pump with high oil pressures. I setup the valve lash with these anti pumpup lifters with .010" to .015" valve lash. I could run the motor to 6,200 with out a major power drop and having the valves float and hit the pistons. I also run beehive springs from a BBC. Very happy with them over the years. They lost about 15 pounds of pressure at max lift. They did make the motor rev a little quicker. Camshaft was retared 8 degrees for this motor. I build torque motors.
Same block with stroker kit. 482 motor with 10.0 compression. Same heads but running a hydro roller camshaft, .586"-.607" lift. 480 hp and 568 ft of torque. all this power in by 6,000 rpm. With roller lifters pumped up at higher rpms have to watch the valve spring coil bind. I am safe with .090". Crane wants .100". I know guys running at .060" but have broken valve springs from either running to tight or over revving and hitting a rev limiter. If you have to hit 6,200 rpms need a camshaft and valve springs to handle this range. Bigger camshaft and heavier valve springs. Going to need a good rocker shaft with support ends assemblies and complete roller rockers. Roller tips at the minium. Erson went out of business. Best setup for the price range they where selling. T&D or Jessel would be my pick. The heads might need to be machined to handle jessels.
Something to think about, the higher you rev this motor the shorter the life span. I am a big block FE fan. I think this motor looks correct in a cobra. Small blocks look correct in a FIA cobra or one with wire wheels. Fe motor cost about 1/3 to 1/2 more and building a small block or going to a mod motor. Building a hydro roller camsaft motor will give you many years of fun and just basic maintainance. Running a roller camshaft with upto a .600" lift and 1.75 rocker arm ratio will give you the best of both worlds. MY 482 has just a little lope and has between 12-13.5 hg of vacuum. I run street mufflers that kill about 30 hp. The pipes are quieter than my race pipes. Wear ear plug in left ear when cruising. If you goggle FE build ups you will find a couple. They give real good power and are dependable. Side notes, 1 get an HVHP oil pump and canton oil pan that holds 6-7 quarts. windage tray is optional. You want 30-35 psi oil pressure at idle hot. Don't let this motor idle for long periods of time. Most of the the guys run a 60 pound pressure spring. I run a 100# spring. If you can get an 80# one this would be good. Oiling modes. very one limits the oil to the rockers and valve springs with a .060" oriface in the supply port of the head. In my motor I run .080" and have no problems. Remember you need oiling to cool the valve springs as well and lube the rocker shafts. Last but also important, choice is yours on running an oil cooler in the front of the car. Add a thermostat to help get the oil to working temp. Running without one the oil has a tough time getting to temp. Oil I run is 15-40 rotella. Last option is adding an accusump to prelube the motor before starting. 90% of the wear is on cranking before the motor starts and runs. Dry is dry. I use 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment. It clings to the motor parts and reduces dry starts after the motor has been sitting for some time. Must mix this slowly into the engine oil when it's hot to get best protection. Accusump, I autocross and road race. Pulling high "g" turns this help keeping the oil pressure up anbd stable. preoiling also helps starting with having 30 psi before cranking and gives you an extra 1,2,or 3 quarts of extra oil for the motor. Over time you will get the bug to autocross or track run the car. This will help save the motor. You may fine that the 3.50 gears are too much. Your car will only weight about 2,800 pounds. You didn't give us the trans gear ratios either. I run both a 6 spd and 5 spd trannies. Most of the time I never startout in 1st. With the bottom end torque these motors make you may goto a 3.00 gear. Good luck, looking forward to read on the build. Rick L.

[Lt Mac]

I'll will be helping Mark with his build. Tried to talk him into 351 w stroked until he found this fe Xc 361 crank bored 4.50. No cracks but waiting on cylinder mapping. I know he is leaning towards 445 roller with roller cam. Stock elders with their rpm intake. Will springs need to be upgraded? Custom grind cam? What rocker assembly? What carb?

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Lt Mac

I'll will be helping Mark with his build. Tried to talk him into 351 w stroked until he found this fe Xc 361 crank bored 4.50. No cracks but waiting on cylinder mapping. I know he is leaning towards 445 roller with roller cam. Stock elders with their rpm intake. Will springs need to be upgraded? Custom grind cam? What rocker assembly? What carb?

Is that a 4.5 inch cylinder bore or a 4.15 inch cylinder bore?

[Mark M]

361 is 4.050 445 will be 4.080

[RICK LAKE]

Lt Mac Mac Have Mark spend some money and have the head get some work. Clean up the ports to match the intake. Clean under the valves to increase and smooth the flow into the cylinders. Most guys here call it a stage 2 job. You are not looking for max flow on these heads. Maybe down the road. I am guessing you had a finger problem with the spec numbers and the block is a 4.05. Walls should be plenty thick.
I would recommend that you have the block bored and buy a complete rotating assembly. This assembly should be balanced with the crankshaft dampener and flywheel. This will save alot of time in the long run. The main bearings, rod bearings, and rings come in the kit. You will have to check the clearances on them. Rings may need to be trimmed for the clearances. Need to tell the machinist what material the rings you are running to match the cylinder honing and for a quick breakin. This way the motor will not use alot of oil.
Valve springs, your friend is building a torque motor with a stroker setup. IMO I don't like to spin one over 6,000 rpms at all because of high piston loads. It would cost extra money but running a set of beehive valve spring from crane #12026 for a BBC would be perfect. These are the ones I have been running for better than 10 years. The less weight in the valve train the quicker the motor revs. Pac springs also sells a spring in the 420# range which will get you to 6,300 rpms. The other problem is your heads running out of air along with the intake. Intake runners and ports can cause from 10-40 cfm different in flow between each cylinder. There is a guy Joe Craine that match ports an intake. Job is super and all the ports are within 5 cfms. Takes about a week and worth every penny. Power increase 5-20% depending on heads work done.
Camshafts IMO rollers are the only way to go in todays world. The oil has changed so much with removal of protective zinc particals. There are a couple of guys sell oil with high zinc and the other elements to protect like Joe Gibbs. This stuff is not cheap. Amsoil is another. You didn't say what oil you guys where looking at. Either way buy breakin oil and do the 20 minutes at 2,000 rpms. Change the oil and open the filter and check for metal flakes or partials in the paper. Some guys run Mobil 1. I have never tryed this on my race motors or even in my cars and trucks. I have tested my own fleet and found that Lucas oil suppliment works greats. Use 1 quart with each oil change. Motor oil must be warm and pour in slowly to get a good mix. startups will not be so dry and rockers will be quiet.
Back to camshafts rollers, hydros. These are the heaviest 0f the lifters. Solid roller are lighter and they have there draw backs. Can be run on the street but have rules about no idling and checking valve lash. Life time limit is about 10K miles and then start to check rollers and camshaft ramps. The lash causes hammering of the wheel against the lobe of the shaft. It's only .016" cold lash but there is still hitting of the rocker, pushrod and lifter. It's wears out. For what you are looking for, a roller cam with a max of .600" with a 112 LSA. The small crane 587-607 would be ideal for you. Little lope and alot of mid range power. Custom camshaft will get a little more power from the same range. Buy a good set of timing chain and gears . Get a torrington bearing kit to hold the camshaft in place. make sure you check the end play of the camshaft, it may need to be shimmed to remove free play. Gear on the distributor, Make sure you match materials or you will have problems down the road. Cutting info short. Lt thanks for servicing us and good luck. Rick L.

[Dwight]

with the torque a stroked FE has in the low rpm range I would suggest 3.00 or 3.25 gears.
You will blow the tires off in 1st and 2nd with 3.50. I would also run the largest diameter tire I could get under the fender with the 3.25 gear.

Dwight

[Lt Mac]

Yep had a fat finger, brother Mark got it right. Thanks for all of the tips and input. Should we use the stock flywheel or look at aftermarket? What dampener would you suggest? I know Mark bought Barry's book, But I don't remember if it addressed those.

[DanEC]

There seem to be a lot of theories on what weight flywheel works best in these cars. I like the one that these cars are pretty light so there's no need for a 30 or 40 lb flywheel. But you may not be happy with a 12 or 13 lb one either in street driving. So, sort of like Goldilocks and the 3 bears, a medium weight flywheel in the 20 - 25 lb range must be just right. My 1-1/2 cents of questionable opinion anyway.

[Mark M]

Got the sonic map today it looks like a 4.080 bore will work. While the stock bore was 4.050 the cylinders measured from 4.055 to 4.070 so it has wear. Most of the walls were at least .250 thick the thinnest was .166 so if need be we can bore at least .060 over. The plan is to bore to 4.080 and stop and check. If that bore doesn't clean it up we will reevaluate. By the way thanks for all your input on cams. Probably going with a hydraulic roller. Both comp cams and crane cams have good tutorials that help sort it all out.
Hey Barry, in your book you stated that you often use solid flat tappet in you 445 builds.
Are your builds more race oriented or has the hydraulic roller much more improved since 2010?

[RACERAL]

Ford FE flywheel seems looks like it would work in the Cobra.. its middle of the road in weight. I am working on a 445 and most tell me to use the stock damper if its in good shape and mine is...plus its just gonna be a street car

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by DanEC

My 459 FE was built for street manners and uses a flat tappet hydraulic cam of 231/236 @.050 with a lift of around .600 (can't recall exactly). It maxed out on power around 5400 - 5500 rpm and has a broad torque curve. It has a pretty good rumpity- rump idle as you can hear in the video in my signature block - but it still drives nice and easy.

Along with Blykins info that might give you some idea of what you need in cam spec depending on where you want max power at.

Beautiful car sounds identical to ours with near same cam specs in a 460. We also have under car exhaust almost a sleeper look.

[RICK LAKE]

Lt Mac Mac the cobra is a roughly 2,200-2,500 pound car. You are building a torque motor. IF you where putting this motor into a dump truck, 40 pounds would be the correct application. If racing, a titlon is about 12 pounds with a double or triple disc setup.Not good for street use. A couple of guys are running them. You have not come up with a clutch you are looking to run? 3 finger, diapham, dual disc setup? 11.5" 11.0" or smaller? You have not said which trans mission ratios you have for both 1st gear and 5th gear. This will also help in finding the correct weight for the flywheel. A 20-24 pounder would be a good weight for all around use and abuse.
Tires? what wear rating and who's? If you do alot of showing off, you may want to look at a soft clutch setup. Better to burn out the clutch, than blow a trans apart with power shifting. Clutch about $350.00, Trans about $1,800.00.
Dampener for motor. If you are only going to abuse the car to a minimum, a new stock one should last a long time. If the abuse factor is large thatn getting and SEFI certified is the only way to go. IF you go with a fluid dampener, there is a issue with letting the motor run for a couple of minutes to allow the internal weight to start moving around to balance the motor when running. Down side is some times motor has bad vibration on startup. Damage done, I have found none in either motor with 452 or 482. Super dampener is what I have been running. Down side unless they changed is that the pulleys you install on them have to be BBC bolt pattern. FE will not work unless you drill them out. They need to be centered or you will get a vibration with the motor running. Side note here, DON'T run under drive pulleys. Make sure the waterpump and crankshaft pulley are the same diameter. Overheating is a problem. We can talk about this on another thread. Have fix for this too. Make sure the coolant passages are opened up on the intake.
I believe in buying the best parts I can afford. Have had only a couple of breakdowns over the years. Poor design of shelby heads and not having deep time serts, and oil returns need to be opened to get max return.
If you goggle FE motor buildups and there are about 10-15 now, they all have a trick or 2 to help improve power and extend the life on a motor.
If you have the stroker kit, buy the flywheel and dampener and give them to your machinist for a complete balancing. Need to index the flywheel on some cranks, others are 1 way only. The whole thing should balance out to "0".
Barry'S book as alot of good info too.
Talking about clutches, What setup are you looking at? Cable, master/slave hydro to a fork, hydro throw out bearing? Something else you need to look at? More info needed. Rick L.

[Mark M]

Rick, the Tremec rep suggested we use the TKO 5 speed. TCET5008. 1st @ 2.87 and 5th @ .64. This transmission is a mechanical clutch but with crappy knees wondering if I should upgrade to a hydraulic clutch. I had someone recommend a double Kevlar clutch but have not gone down that road yet. Getting back to cams I found a Crane cam similar to 587-607 with 112 LSA but it is for a BBC (#139011). Is there an off the shelf or is it custom grind for FE. Also, you mentioned Torrington bearings to spin the cam on. Do they make a solid bearing or are they needle pin bearings? Thanks for your input, attention in the planning stage hopefully will save a lot of headaches later.

[blykins]

You will need a custom grind for an FE if you want a cam that works well with the FE lifters and valvetrain.

Don't need a Torrington bearing for either thrust or cam....traditional cam bearings work great and a regular Ford Racing timing set with factory thrust plate is all I use.

[RICK LAKE]

Mark M. 587-607 is a custom camshaft that used to be a mass produced one. It's a great mid range stroker motor camshaft. I have cheated using it and can spin to 6,200 rpms. Also my heads have a stage 2 valve job done. My last motor will be a 496-498 motor with stage 3 head job. They are maxed out to the limits for an old set of EDELbrock heads. New BT will flow in the 400 cfm range. I am going to a 630" lift camshaft. Have to remember that the specs are with 1.76" rockers. Most rockers now are 1.75". It's a small change but gives a little extra safety limit between valves and pistons and valve spring bind. I run beehive spring and they need a little different clearance setup to not fail. I like .100" clearance on these springs. You can run them in the .050" clearance but at high rpms over 6,500 rpms they are know to break from the coils hitting each other.
Lets get back to your car, What compression are we looking at? Here's the thing, your motor is a little bigger than what the catalog list. Biggest FE is 428 cubes. You are 445. This is down size they camshaft. If I was running a 445 motor, depending on compression, either hr 214/319-25-12 which is 561/584 with low compression of 8.0-9.5. Other camshaft is hr 226/3201-25-12 with compression of 10.0-11.5 WITH some head work of stage 2 or stage 3. Are we doing head work and intake manifold work???
Here's the other bite in the butt, 2.87 first gear with a 3.50 gearing is great. What sucks is in 5th gear the motor is going to lug with a .64 ratio. 4th gear is 1-1. The drop in gear will kill the motor unless you are driving at 75 mph. Even the torque your motor will produce is boarder line. You might be better with a .87 5th gear. If you search through the threads on trannies you will find other guys that have tryed this and found out the same problem. This is why most small block cars run a 3.73 -4.10 gears to get useage of all 5 or 6 spds.
Clutch, single or twin disc? twins are not cheap but can take alot more abuse. I like basic organic or mix disc clutches. Not a fan of kevlar or carbon. takes aton of heat to get them to work right. Hydro TOB is the way to go. Only down side is feed back from the clutch. You are not racing 100% of the time so it's not important. Brent sells a great street setup from Mcleod. I have been running one for 3 years, works great, good feel, no slipping, It does put a little extra strain on the drivetrain, but I over built it for abuse. I try and keep this to a min. IMO a single disc system needs too much clamping force to prevent slipping. Old days pressure plates where done by weight of pressure applied to clutch disc. 2,400-3,200 pound pressure plates. I found out the heavier clutches bent the fork or broke it on some setups. This is before the better hydro TOB got alot better. I run one today. Mcleod.
Last note. Brent builds motors for a living. I build them for friends and a meal. here's my opinion on camshaft plates or bearings. The steel plate works good. I think that it working on a iron motor will be fine without and wear to the camshaft or timing gears. I would still try to remove any camshaft end play. I like between .002-.004" I want it dead still and not sliding around. This is an iron block. It's hard to get the correct shims sometimes for the correct setup. This also helps prevent distributor gears wearing out or shaving on the camshaft. Also need to match camshaft gear to distributor gear or you will have a quick failure. Damage from this can be from minor to major with the metal shaving ending up in the motor. Some of the guys here running 351 strokers have had there motors have failures of this problem.
Aluminum motors, I have 2, and built others. This motor expands more than iron. I like torrington bearings on them because there is no wear on the face of the camshaft, controlling movement of the cam shaft, no dragging as it spins. bearing does the same as the plate with a little more forgiveness, IMO. It's all about choice and money in your pocket and where you want to spend it.I respect Brents ideas, and we both have alot of miles on motors we have built. This way has always worked for me. I also believe in high oil pressure, others here said it's not needed. I know that high pressure is rough on the distributor gear and camshaft. I run a tooled steel drive. This is another reason for tight specs. I have 35-38 psi at idle of 800 rpms. I like oil pressure in the 70-85 range for an FE motor. Others say 60 psi is fine and is for a street motor. Mine is 95% track and abuse. Going to dry sump on 498 motor. Again this is my opinion and 16 years of playing with a shelby block FE motor. This motor is different from an Ford FE motor. Last note. Goggle FE motor oil modifications and follow them. IF you can't fine them, try the FE forumn or FE power. It's a 6 page article. Good luck, stay in touch. Rick L.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Mark M

Rick, the Tremec rep suggested we use the TKO 5 speed. TCET5008. 1st @ 2.87 and 5th @ .64.

The .64 5th is like having a 6 speed with 5th gear missing. Huge step between 4th and 5th gear. If you have much cam, it will make 5th unusable, except on the interstates. There are many threads you can search and read. Most of us who have the .64 wish we had the .82.