Meatball thread

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The intent behind that page is to simply raise the awareness of the viewer as to the differences between manufacturers. If a prospective buyer comes away from that page saying to himself "maybe I should actually see these cars in person before I buy" then it has achieved its goal. I know ERA has an uncomfortable wait time, but what about Kirkham? I know they technically don't do "turnkey cars," but how long does it take to get as much done as they will possibly do?

I must disagree with you on that first statement. I believe the 'intent' was to say, "look at how accurate we got the shape". Nothing wrong with that, ERA deserves it...but, I noticed that other pics were taken from dissimilar angles and that makes some of them look downright unflattering - the Kirkham in particular (I take offense to that one ). I mean, how can you argue with the Kirkham shape? But from a low slung pic of an ERA - compared to a 'tall' pic of a Kirkham, one might ass-ume the ERA is more (fill in blank).

The good folks at ERA have proven themselves to be talented, business friendly craftsmen. It's just that the comparo is, shall we say, snake oil? Leading the witness, as you say?

As far as the wait time, I'm not sure what your point was. Maybe you were commenting on another post?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The intent behind that page is to simply raise the awareness of the viewer as to the differences between manufacturers. If a prospective buyer comes away from that page saying to himself "maybe I should actually see these cars in person before I buy" then it has achieved its goal. I know ERA has an uncomfortable wait time, but what about Kirkham? I know they technically don't do "turnkey cars," but how long does it take to get as much done as they will possibly do?

Generally, I believe the Kirkham wait time is about 4-6 months, but with the production of the Coupe, I think their Cobra wait time has increased to 9-12 months. However, I'm sure someone will correct me, if I'm wrong.

As for the profile pics, I say "meh." There are some front, rear and side views of the Shelby and ERA that don't look correct to me. Plus, when was the last time that page was changed to reflect the bodies made today by each company, not from 10 years ago.

[patrickt]

Note on that page that Bob invites the submission of better photos.... Regarding the wait time, the real down-side of getting an ERA turnkey is that it takes a year to do so. I have no idea what you would have to do now to get a turnkey CSX car made to your specs. I was just curious if you call up KMS and said "how long will it take for you to build a 427 car to my specs" will I see the car in six months, nine months, or a year? I think you can pretty much land an SPF in a week to ten days....

[rodneym]

Rodknock,
In all fairness, when you say some angles of CSX's and ERA's don't look right, don't you mean 'familiar'? The originals were hardly consistent.

patrickt,
I've seen that invitation from ERA before and I'm a wee bit surprised he hasn't gotten any (or at least posted them). If I ever get the gumption, I'll take some pics my...all hell. Who am I kidding. I'm tired.

[66gtk]

Guys,

As a photographer I know it is impossible to get that comparison poster or whatever you want to call it to be even close to legitimate unless the following conditions are met:

1. Each car must be rolled into the exact same spot on a perfectly flat/level surface
2. Camera must be on a tripod in a fixed position with a fixed focal range ( at least 150 mm would be a good start) for each shot.

If any one of these conditions are changed, you aren't comparing apples to apples.

I have access to a late model SPF and ERA, but wouldn't be able to take the photos until spring. At that time, I'd be happy to share the result. Wish I had a CSX3xxx car available to me, but I don't.

[Ron61]

I am not sure that this is relevant to this thread but no special construction car that is turn key can be legally registered in California. We have to use the SB-100 numbers and I know of a couple of people that had their titles pulled and couldn't register the cars in this state because they got them turn key. So the turn key thing is no big thing for people in the Republic of California.

Ron

[Detroit Bill]

I spent some time this morning reading the ERA website. They make some good points about their frame. It appears to me that getting a rolling chassis from them could take some time, quite a bit of time.

Best I can tell Superformance dealers charge around $7,500 for labor and parts to install the engine and trans. My thought is to do the install myself which would make maintaining the car much easier. I will have been all over it and familiar with the systems. I would take the money I saved and dump it into an aluminum FE block. Pond actually makes a cast iron block that I would like to understand more about but that is another story. I would talk to a builder about the engine but the goal would be 500++ HP, lots of grunt not to peaky of a powerband with room to grow. So in a couple years if I get regrets on the power I can bump the cam and intake and step it up.

Based on all the comments I am going to make a list and call ERA to get a sense of their timing and pricing

A little more about me. I founded and own a manufacturing company. We have some fabrication mojo. I have a degree in engineering and put it to practice every day. I worked in the car industry for 14 years. I worked for one of the Big three (when there was a big three) part of the time as a field rep which included the technical side. So the "technical" part of a replica Cobra is well within my wheelhouse. Reading the Superformance engine trans install guide there was a picture and reference to a Turn signal relay, click click.... I have not seen one of those in years. I have been involved in the building of several engines both small block and big block Chevy's. This was when you needed 12 to 1 compression and roller everything to make power with 110 octane gas. The car I drove to high school was a big block Camaro that I upgraded and maintained. So I consider myself pretty technically adept..

My concerns on the Cobras are that they are essentially motorcycles. I want the roll bars to be functional and I want shoulder belts. Superformance may be questionable in the roll bar area we will see. I am in Michigan, there is a Superformance dealer nearby. I am going to inspect a rolling chassis today, Tuesday. They said they will put it on a lift for me so I can see how the car is made. I got an engine install guide for a Superformance and is relatively easy. Pretty straight forward, really. What appeals to me is I could have a running car by spring and know the chassis is sound. An ERA built by someone could be great or not so great. At least with a used Superformance, I know where the chassis was built.

[Mongoose930]

Hi Bill,

This is strictly my opinion but I have been addicted to Cobras for over 40 years and over the last 25+ years, I have visited several Cobra manufacturing facilities and attended several Run & Gun and SAAC events.

If you already know that you want an FE in your Cobra, that leads me to believe that over time, you will continue to want to make your car as accurate as possible. My first Cobra was a Contemporary which I had always thought was a very accurate replica. Once you have an eye for what the original cars look like, you quickly realize that a Contemporary Cobra is really not that accurate. The SPF body was splashed off of the Contemporary body so that would probably make it even less accurate compared to an original. Not to say that the Contemporary or SPF aren’t beautiful cars but that does not mean they are accurate when compared to an original Cobra.

If you are not going to purchase a Shelby, Kirkham, Hi-Tech or Exact, then I would suggest giving ERA serious consideration. They may have a square tube frame (as does the SPF) but beyond that, ERA makes an extremely accurate and well-built replica.
I eventually sold my Contemporary and am currently building a Hi-Tech but I truly believe that had I initially purchased an ERA Cobra, I would still have it today.

Good luck with your decision and in the end, you really can’t go wrong with either the ERA or SPF Cobras.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I would take the money I saved and dump it into an aluminum FE block. Pond actually makes a cast iron block that I would like to understand more about but that is another story. I would talk to a builder about the engine but the goal would be 500++ HP, lots of grunt not to peaky of a powerband with room to grow. So in a couple years if I get regrets on the power I can bump the cam and intake and step it up.

Assuming you are in Detroit, Barry Rabotnik, of Survival Motorsports, is just a half hour up the road in Township. He is an FE engine expert. Call him up, spend some time with him, and you'll end up having him build you exactly what you want. You may very well find that a seasoned iron block is what you want, not a Pond.

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

... there is a Superformance dealer nearby. I am going to inspect a rolling chassis today, Tuesday. They said they will put it on a lift for me so I can see how the car is made. I got an engine install guide for a Superformance and is relatively easy. Pretty straight forward, really. What appeals to me is I could have a running car by spring and know the chassis is sound. An ERA built by someone could be great or not so great. At least with a used Superformance, I know where the chassis was built.

You're not going to get what you want from ERA by spring. But, if you can bear the wait, what you get from ERA will not just be close to what you want, it will be 100% EXACTLY what you want, and the engineering will be superior to all other Cobras, and on a par with Kirkham. Do yourself a favor, hop a plane to CT and tour their facilities. Or, if you can't wait, get an SPF next week. And if you're lucky, you'll never realize what might have been....

[DanEC]

I guess it is fair to venture that you could stumble on a poorly assembled ERA somehow, although I think the majority are ERA finished and assembled rollers or finished, running cars. But even in the case of an owner-painted and assembled ERA (as I did) it would be pretty hard to mess one up. Everything is pre-fit and most of the equipment is pre-fit and in place when delivered. They come with a full front suspension, brakes, all fuel and brake lines, all panels. The wiring is not a do-it yourself kit but a factory type plug in wiring harness. The frame and body are a done deal (unless the owner decides to paint themselves) and tough as anything around. Most folks buy a pre-assembled rear suspension from ERA but a few hardy types do find a Jag rear suspension and rebuild and modify it to fit in the ERA cradle. I think for the most part on a used, owner-built ERA, if it has good cosmetics. passes a driving test and everything passes a functional test, about the worst you might find is a loose bolt or screw somewhere. Even on a factory assembled ERA or SPF there are typically a number of rebuilt assemblies and occassionally there is an issue with something. These cars do take some mechanical invovlement no matter what their origin. And as pointed out above, if still a concern, you can identify ERA-assembled from owner-assembed cars from the data plate or simply call ERA.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Even on a factory assembled ERA or SPF there are typically a number of rebuilt assemblies and occasionally there is an issue with something.

On a Superformance MK III ("427 Cobra") there are NO rebuilt or used parts or assemblies supplied from the factory. Now an ERA can be done with used or reman parts depending on the builder however you or ERA can use new pieces for most of the requirements (it may be tough to get a brand new Jag differential, I don't know) needed.

Now I have great respect to ERA and Peter is a really good guy who I always look forward to seeing at events, however the SPF and ERA really are pointed at different markets although there is occasional overlap. Yes, the SPF is targeted to the Windsor market however about 20% by my accounting are FEs. The factory supplies FE install parts, headers, etc. when specified.

The business model of SPF is different from ERA, we have dealers and inventory. ERA is pretty much build to order for rollers or turnkeys so the wait is longer. Right now we can do a MK III chassis custom order in about 120 days delivered.

In my experience most issues are minor on a factory build. And keep in mind these cars are basically from the "age of iron" so basic tools will resolve most problems other than powertrain or installer errors.

You will not go wrong with either, you are just looking a different answers to the question.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

On a Superformance MK III ("427 Cobra") there are NO rebuilt or used parts or assemblies supplied from the factory. Now an ERA can be done with used or reman parts depending on the builder however you or ERA can use new pieces for most of the requirements (it may be tough to get a brand new Jag differential, I don't know) needed.

Now I have great respect to ERA and Peter is a really good guy who I always look forward to seeing at events, however the SPF and ERA really are pointed at different markets although there is occasional overlap. Yes, the SPF is targeted to the Windsor market however about 20% by my accounting are FEs. The factory supplies FE install parts, headers, etc. when specified.

The business model of SPF is different from ERA, we have dealers and inventory. ERA is pretty much build to order for rollers or turnkeys so the wait is longer. Right now we can do a MK III chassis custom order in about 120 days delivered.

In my experience most issues are minor on a factory build. And keep in mind these cars are basically from the "age of iron" so basic tools will resolve most problems other than powertrain or installer errors.

You will not go wrong with either, you are just looking a different answers to the question.

I can't disagree with anything in this post. And, FWIW, it's taken me eight years, after having ERA build me a custom 427 to my exact specs, to get it to the point where I would now say it's 99.9% perfect. Remember, these are all hand built cars, and the "bug work out" time is going to be present on all hand built cars. Earlier this year, I drove by a beautiful new Pagani Zonda that had broken down by the side of the road. There is a little chance that most of us could do any "road side fix-ups" on that little gem. Funny, on that same stretch of road (which is not a place to drive fast or anything), I have seen a broken down Ferrari and Lamborghini (that's over 40 years) -- both looked brand new. Yes, they all have their temperamental moments, but that can add some spice to the mix, too, if you're so inclined.

[bwcobra15]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Detroit Bill -- go here: Compare car profiles and you can see the different side profiles of various cars. Personally, I think the look from behind is even more telling.

That page does need updating. The Hurricane doesn't show the updated, more original-looking roll bar in the later first-generation cars, and the link to Hurricane Motorsports - 427 Roadsters is broken.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I can't disagree with anything in this post.

Patrick! Be still my heart! You mean we AGREE on something?!?!?

Have a good New Year.

[DanEC]

[quote=Mark IV;1332112]On a Superformance MK III ("427 Cobra") there are NO rebuilt or used parts or assemblies supplied from the factory. /QUOTE]

OK - that was a mistake on my part for not realizing they use newly manufactured differential components. My error.

[Mark IV]

[quote=DanEC;1332131]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

On a Superformance MK III ("427 Cobra") there are NO rebuilt or used parts or assemblies supplied from the factory. /QUOTE]

OK - that was a mistake on my part for not realizing they use newly manufactured differential components. My error.

No sweat, they use a new ZF limited slip diff unit similar to what is in the current Camaro. And the LSD is standard equipment, not an option.

[LightNFast]

[quote=Mark IV;1332136]

Originally Posted by DanEC

No sweat, they use a new ZF limited slip diff unit similar to what is in the current Camaro. And the LSD is standard equipment, not an option.

As well as outboard rear brakes.... standard on Superformace


-

[twobjshelbys]

If Authenticity is what you want then you should also consider the Shelby CSX4000/6000 series cars. They just announced their 50th anniversary edition of the 427 today.

But I promised I wouldn't try to detract you from Superformance. They are fine cars (if you fit in them, I didn't)

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

But I promised I wouldn't try to detract you from Superformance. They are fine cars (if you fit in them, I didn't)

Me either, that's why I now have BDR with an FE!


When I was at the OP's stage I went to the London Cobra show to get my head wrapped around the myriad of Cobra makes then made my decision.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Me either, that's why I now have BDR with an FE!


When I was at the OP's stage I went to the London Cobra show to get my head wrapped around the myriad of Cobra makes then made my decision.

I visited many car shows and Cars & Coffee every Saturday. Lots of different cars to look at and try on.

But it sounds like he wants to move fairly quickly so London would be an additional wait.