Comp, S/C, Street 427 BB Engines

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

I don't understand why today's builders are so intent on making 600 HP or more with these cars when they did just fine with more usable power.

Because they are in a race with one another and there are only so many customers to go around. Each one wants to build you more and more, whether you need it, or whether you can use it, or not.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

So...all the glory and folklore back in the day was predicated on these "humble" big blocks putting out a little over 400 HP (give or take). Ken Miles drove a street Cobra on street tires in the famous 0-100-0 run that stood the test of time for decades. I don't understand why today's builders are so intent on making 600 HP or more with these cars when they did just fine with more usable power. Lynn Park has stated on record that when built to stock specs, the cars perform at their best. Yet people can't seem to help themselves by over powering them.

That is all true, you have to change the rest of the car if you want to add power including wheels, tires, suspension and brakes to be able to use that power. I had a 530 HP tunnel port in the early 1970's that was pretty much state of the art then, it would spin 15" Transam Goodyear slicks at will.
It ran 11.2 @128 mph at Detroit Dragway when making 565 hp years later.
It had old road race tires, 60 foot was 1.85, and it would not hook.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by jconley

Dan,


The car will look like a S/C with hood and side pipes.

If building an S/C model then I would probably not use low riser parts unless you stumble across a nice 63 or 64, complete 427 engine that just needs freshening up. The Edelbrock aluminum heads (and others to my knowledge) are built on MR architecture and Blue Thunder makes a nice reproduction MR dual quad intake if you decide to use two-fours. Or a MR aluminum single 4bbl is also pretty easy to source.

I wouldn't completely give up the thought of building your own engine but I would do some study and get a couple books on FEs in preparation. There are a few unique things about them but they are't magical. You would need a good machinest shop you trust.

[Bernica]

Also, unless you just have to have a side-oiler, a center-oiler 427 MR will do just fine. You won't know the difference and they are a bit easier and cheaper to find.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Also, unless you just have to have a side-oiler, a center-oiler 427 MR will do just fine. You won't know the difference and they are a bit easier and cheaper to find.

Or just a stroked and bored stout 390. If you asked any of the FE builders around here to find a good 390 and then build it to perform "just like" the 1963/64 427 Side Oilers with the optional race cam in them they could do it in their sleep. Up the ante and tell them you want it just like the 427 MR, but as if you had asked for the optional K cam from the Ford parts counter (which you could do), and, I think, you get the "perfect" non-all-out-racing Cobra engine. Uhhh, yes, that's what I did....

[rodneym]

63/64 is a bit early early for a MR, no?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

Yet people can't seem to help themselves by over powering them.

Technology has moved forward/on. Tires, engines, transmissions, brakes, suspensions, etc. The difference in cost to make a 500 HP versus a 600 HP engine has got to be zero, if starting from scratch.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rodneym

63/64 is a bit early early for a MR, no?

Right, but what happened is that once the medium riser was made available, Ford used the smaller of the two basic "non-race" cams in it, which was the one that came in the 427-4v LR. You could specifically request the cam that came in the 427-8v LR in your medium riser, and that was done a good bit. Most people think that the cam that came in the 4v and 8v flavors of the 427 was the same, but it wasn't. If you look through some of the Cobra specs, and some of the stuff over on SAAC, you'll see a reference to the "K" cam, which was really the same as the 427-8v cam, but it would be teamed up with the MR manifold, and other stuff as well. The actual engineering and parts numbers were all very similar. Note, however, that there was one more cam that was above the "K" cam in performance. It had the exact same lobe configurations (duration and lift) as the K cam, but the LSA was much smaller. Nowadays, no one really cares anymore, but if they do, I'll post part numbers/etc. that I am 99.9% sure are accurate as to each of the flavors.

[patrickt]

I know you like "authoritative documents" ... Here are the original three cams -- we'll just call them "regular, fast, and race."

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by rodneym

63/64 is a bit early early for a MR, no?

MR was introduced in 65.

[Bernica]

Here are a couple of pages on cams and manifold setups from back in the day. This is from a '68 or '69 Muscle Parts book. Don't see that K-cam, but I had heard about it...

[patrickt]

Now, just imagine if you went to Brent L. and said "I want an FE with 14.1 compression ratio and a cam that has a net overall lift of .500, and I plan on running it on street gas." I don't know if you could even get him to do it. In theory, if someone tried to build a duplicate of an original engine, nowadays, that's what they'd be doing.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Here are a couple of pages on cams and manifold setups from back in the day. This is from a '68 or '69 Muscle Parts book. Don't see that K-cam, but I had heard about it...

Yes, it dropped out of the literature, as I recall, around 1966 or so, but don't hold me to that. Some say it never really existed at all, but they are wrong...

[rodneym]

It's still being done, no question. You just have to have access to good gas.
Then the 200 miles per year makes a bit more sense.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Now, just imagine if you went to Brent L. and said "I want an FE with 14.1 compression ratio and a cam that has a net overall lift of .500, and I plan on running it on street gas." I don't know if you could even get him to do it. In theory, if someone tried to build a duplicate of an original engine, nowadays, that's what they'd be doing.

Ah the memories!...
13:1 compression, TRW pistons, SFT cams, Cherry Bombs, Purple Hornies and 40 cents a gallon for 110 octane! Now there I go again dating myself!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Ah the memories!...
13:1 compression, TRW pistons, SFT cams, Cherry Bombs, Purple Hornies and 40 cents a gallon for 110 octane! Now there I go again dating myself!

... and you can't even completely rely on the specs that came from Ford itself. One fella that had an unmolested K cam in his car, when it was pulled and put on a Cam Doctor, the actual specs only jived with the Ford specs when you used the 1.73 rocker arm ratio, not the 1.76 ratio. I think I've been told by someone around here that you couldn't really rely on the ratio being correct anyway. But the point is, if you're a novice, even a talented one, and you set your sights on building an "original Cobra spec 427 FE" you're just setting yourself up for a big heartache....

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by rodneym

It's still being done, no question. You just have to have access to good gas.
Then the 200 miles per year makes a bit more sense.

I buy Sunoco Race gas by the 55 gallon drum, 110 octane but limited mileage too so you could do it. last year I went through 130 gallons running autox and very limited street driving. Compression is 15 to 1 but very big cam so cylinder pressures are not so bad at low RPM.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I buy Sunoco Race gas by the 55 gallon drum, 110 octane but limited mileage too so you could do it. last year I went through 130 gallons running autox and very limited street driving. Compression is 15 to 1 but very big cam so cylinder pressures are not so bad at low RPM.

Do you keep a 55 gallon drum of race gas in your home garage?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Do you keep a 55 gallon drum of race gas in your home garage?

Yes, yes he does


Bill S.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I buy Sunoco Race gas by the 55 gallon drum, 110 octane but limited mileage too so you could do it. last year I went through 130 gallons running autox and very limited street driving. Compression is 15 to 1 but very big cam so cylinder pressures are not so bad at low RPM.

Green with envy over here.
I'm fortunate enough to know a few original owners, who their engine guy is, and what fuel they run. Definately a different beast than our fakey dos (99.9% of us, not you ).
I love being able to gas up anywhere and put thousands of miles without gas worries but I'd trade it all in, for say...CSX3170