Survival Motorsports Road Trip / Build Thread

[Detroit Bill]

My 17 year old son and I took a road trip (1 hour) to visit Barry Rabotnick who owns Survival Motorsports. Barry could not have been kinder or more generous with his time. We got a full shop tour which included an A to Z lesson on how an engine worked for my son. My son understood suck, squeeze, bang, blow but was a little sketchy on intake, valve train, head flow and things like that. Looking at the parts and pieces of partially assembled engines really helped solidify his understanding.

We looked at sets of Felony Heads and compared them to Edelbrock heads.
The Felony un-ported castings were vastly different than the Edelbrock castings.
The runners were certainly more open and appeared better flowing for what that's worth but Barry explained that they were not significantly larger volume to keep velocity up. He was kind enough to show us the mule castings and explain the development process. It was very interesting and cool to hear it explained fully. There is much more to the head that I would not attempt to explain but the main point would be that the head will flow more with no porting than a stock Edelbrock head and with porting it would flow a significant amount of air more than what is needed for my build.

We are going to build a 482 pond block engine with Felony heads, Cast Scat crank, Scat H beam connecting rods, and a Blue thunder dual plane or Edelbrock Performer RPM intake single 4 bbl. The goal is 600 600. So we set the build in motion and I am excited for the process to begin (which will take a couple weeks at minimum to begin).

All of this is going in a new Superformance with Tremec 600. I am going with 17" standard style rims, powdercoated a dull black with Nitto NT05's.

Super excited and fortunate to have someone with Barry's knowledge that close by. He invited us to come by and look at the progress of the build and be there for the dyno session.

[Dimis]

Congrats on the decision.
Both with engine, and builder.

[blykins]

Barry will do a nice job for you. Congratulations on starting your project.

[750hp]

Sounds great Bill. I bet engine builders wish they could clone themselves, so that they can spend time and build rapport with their potential customers, but also be out the back actually getting stuff done.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Barry will do a nice job for you. Congratulations on starting your project.

Bret do you know which manifold is taller? A RPM performer or a Blue Thunder dual plane? I am concerned with hood clearance.

[blykins]

I don't think I've ever had both side by side. I have used both though, and off the top of my head, they seem pretty similar in height at the carb flange.

FWIW, I have a customer with a Unique Cobra, with an FE, and a Blue Thunder intake, and it fits fine. I also have a customer with an ERA with an FE and a Victor FE intake. It's close but fits. I don't think I have any SPF customers with FEs....all small blocks from what I remember.

[Mongoose930]

Hi Bill,

You probably saw my engine while you were there. Sounds like we will have similar engines with the difference being that I have a cast iron center oiler. It is a stroker motor with a scat crank, H-Beam rods, 482 cubic inches, Diamond 10.5:1 pistons, Felony heads and a Blue Thunder manifold. I did handcuff Barry a bit with my Lemans carb. bowls and dual point distributor to keep it looking period correct but it was still at 550 HP and 560 LB torque with a roller cam. I have attached a couple of pictures. Good luck with your build - Barry really knows his stuff.

PS - Barry will be machining off the Edelbrock logo from the water pump.

[Mr Jody]

Good info Bill! I've been considering going a similar route as you, with the Blue Thunder dual plane and Barry's Felony heads, but just a 445 stroker. I welcome any other info you would like to provide on what else you are considering in your build (ie., carb, cam, lifters, rockers, etc.).

And thanks Brent, for the hood clearance information for a Unique. Just curious, what carb was used?

[blykins]

A Holley 750DP.

Mongoose, the Holley carb and dual points distributor is not really a handcuff. If the carb is worked and the distributor is curved, I wouldn't expect much of a hp difference.

I built a 427 S/O for a road race car. The rules stated it had to be a flat tappet camshaft, so I fired it on the dyno with a known-good MSD distributor, to eliminate start-up variables. We made pulls with it, then switched over to a dual point Mallory and there was no difference in hp. The beauty of the new stuff, however, is how easy you can change things, or the degree that you can change them. You can totally recurve an MSD in about 5 minutes. Not so much with a dual points style piece.

The more engines I build, the more fond I am of "old-school" setups.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by Mongoose930

Hi Bill,

You probably saw my engine while you were there. Sounds like we will have similar engines with the difference being that I have a cast iron center oiler. It is a stroker motor with a scat crank, H-Beam rods, 482 cubic inches, Diamond 10.5:1 pistons, Felony heads and a Blue Thunder manifold. I did handcuff Barry a bit with my Lemans carb. bowls and dual point distributor to keep it looking period correct but it was still at 550 HP and 560 LB torque with a roller cam. I have attached a couple of pictures. Good luck with your build - Barry really knows his stuff.

PS - Barry will be machining off the Edelbrock logo from the water pump.

We did see your motor and Barry mentioned the logo on the water pump. You can get 482 out of an iron block? I thought it could not be bored enought. Is that a Pond block?

[blykins]

A 482 is a pretty common combo for factory 427 blocks. It's a 4.250" bore with a 4.250" stroke. The factory 427 C/O and S/O blocks were 4.233", so it just takes a slight overbore to get there.

[Mongoose930]

Hi Brent,

The real issue was the Lemans bowls. I had Joe Bunetic work on my Holley 850 double pumper to de-choke, de-horn, replate, etc. and add the Lemans bowls. Unfortunately, the bowls have a 1/8 NPT thread with a 5/16 barb and we could not get enough fuel into the bowls at the higher RPMs. When I get the engine back, I will convert to 3/8 fittings and probably try to open those up a bit to increase flow. Barry tried increasing the fuel pressure to increase flow but then the carb started flooding. I am sure there is at least another 10 to 15 horsepower with a few minor tweeks to the carb. Barry put his Engine Masters carb on my engine and immediately picked up additional horsepower and torque.

Farron Rhoads rebuilt my dual point distributor with the Pertronix III module and re-curved it for me. I think this is a nice solution when you want to keep the old school look but the MSD stuff is probably a bit more flexible. So far I am really pleased with how the engine turned out and can't wait to drop it into my Cobra. More than enough power but very streetable

[Mongoose930]

Here is a video of my engine on the dyno:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92VVErKl7M&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

[DanEC]

According to The Great FE Intake Comparo book by Jay Brown, the Blue Thunder is a little taller. He measured height by placing a straightedge on the carb base extending over the front and rear of the intake. Then he measured the height of the straightedge at the front and rear lines of the intake. Both measured 4.875 inch at the front. The RPM measured 6 inches at the rear and the BT measured 6.75 inches. So the BT is set up for considerably more engine slope when installed. The BT does position the carb 1/2 inch closer to the front which would minimize the difference in height a little.

You might want to see how much engine slope usually results when installed in the Superformance. I think FEs usually end up a little more level in Cobra replicas than in regular Mustangs, Galaxies, Torinos, etc.

It looks like from his charts he got a little more power out of the BT on the higher performance 427 SO combo he tested using a lot of carb. The RPM was a little better on the closer to stock 428 combo he used for a test mule. But - results probably will vary depending on the engine combo.

[Barry_R]

I'll just set this down over here...

[Dimis]

Very strong and flat torque curve there. Nice!

Congrats Mongoose

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by Mr Jody

Good info Bill! I've been considering going a similar route as you, with the Blue Thunder dual plane and Barry's Felony heads, but just a 445 stroker. I welcome any other info you would like to provide on what else you are considering in your build (ie., carb, cam, lifters, rockers, etc.).

And thanks Brent, for the hood clearance information for a Unique. Just curious, what carb was used?

Sorry I missed this.

I gave Barry a target and the behavior I was going for and left him to pick the parts. He Spec'd:

QFT-850 Vac for the carb
Rocker Arms T&D
Hydraulic Roller
Custom Cam
I asked for a PCV system trying to limit the mist in the engine compartment.

We need to discuss things a bit before he moves forward. I believe he is very busy which is good for him. I am trying not to bother him with BS which frankly is difficult because waiting is difficult and I have lots of questions.

I did order up a Shelby Aluminum Alternator Bracket set and a Aluminum polishing kit. I have a nice 1-1/2 horse motor with a 12" x 5/8" arbor. I am going to try my hand at polishing the alternator bracket and if it works out like I expect it to I will get some Blue Thunder Competition valve covers and polish them myself. It will be a lot of work but I have supplies at work that will help and time to kill waiting for the kit and components to be done. Looking at photos on the internet most seem to be aluminum finned 427 Cobra or Chrome Pentroofs. I was going to do something slightly different. Being a bolt on I can always change them if I want.

[Mark IV]

Bill,

Plan on looking like Al Jolsen in the "Jazz Singer" when you are polishing aluminum!

Sounds like Barry has a good handle on what you want to achieve.

Rick

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Bill,

Plan on looking like Al Jolsen in the "Jazz Singer" when you are polishing aluminum!

This is true... I looked like Tin-man from wizard of oz when I polished mine.
Although time consuming and frustrating at times, it can be very therapeutic.

[Detroit Bill]

Do you have photos of the finished covers and how long did it take?