FE light tap & rattling noise

[DanEC]

I have a couple video files of engine noise but unfortunately they may not be clean enough to tell much. This is probably the most useful one.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80q_sC9j8qM[/ame]

The car has under 300 miles on it and it has had a light tapping most of the time. I don't remember it when I first fired up the motor in the car but the header ceramic coating failed immediately and had to be re-done and I changed the break in oil out before starting it again. That is when I first remember hearing some light tapping noise. The car currently has 10W-30 oil in it and runs about 20 to 25 psi at hot idle.

The motor has a flat tappet hyraulic cam with adjustable rockers. Today I very carefully ran the preload settings "again" using the ICE/EOI process for each cylinder, using movement of the rocker and up/down on the pushrod to verify 0-lash, and then lashed them 3/4 more turn. All the lifters were still pumped up when I started the adjustments so I don't think it's a lifter that is stuck or not pumping up. When finished the noise may be a little slighter but it's still there.

I've been all over the motor with a stethescope, a long screw driver and a length of rubber hose and I can't isolate the noise anywhere. i've tried all along the valve covers, exhaust ports, intake, the fuel pump, etc. The noise does seem to be a little more to the passenger side of the engine.

When adjusting the lifters I did notice that the tin drain pieces on the driver side looked to be right against a couple of the springs so I bent them slightly away but that didn't appear to be the issue. Couldn't see anything else on the valve train that seemed out of place.

It actually seems a bit louder underneath or through the side vents as I tried to indicate in the one video where I stuck the camera down by the rocker. All that makes me wonder about an exhaust leak except for 2 things. One, I'm running SCE copper gaskets and two, when driving along with light engine load it will go through cycles of whirrling, rattling, racket - with the top on right now I really hear it. Step on the gas and it quiets down. I have undercar exhaust - I probably would have a harder time hearing it over side exhaust.

Motor runs good without issues. Plugs a bit sooty but dry. No issues otherwise. It's been nearly 35 years since the last motor I had with headers. Header always make some noise but I don't remember them sounding as thrashy as this. I've also had the headers loose and tightened back 2 or 3 times and wonder if the SCE gaskets just aren't sealing anymore. All my header slip joints were sealed with Walkers exhaust joint sealer. I figured the SCE gaskets would be good for several cycles of removal/replacement but maybe not??? Anybody had an issue with copper gaskets not re-sealing in reuse? Sound like an exhaust leak? Worth getting another set of those pricey gaskets?

Trying to eliminate all obvious ideas before turning to the builder.

[r67cat]

Always difficult to diagnose via a video, that said my suspicion is exhaust leak. Particularly telling is the fact that you noticed it after the header removal. I would not reuse the exhaust gaskets. For the hassle of removing the headers I would renew each time. Also with the hood closed, having the noise more noticeable, and certainly more noticeable near the side vents leads me to the exhaust gas leak. That often is mistaken for lifter noise. Rick

[DanEC]

Thanks for the reply - I was waiting to see if anyone would comment about the sound at the side vent. I may need to looks for a header gasket alternative - those copper gaskets are far too expensive for a single use.

Taking the collector off at the header pipe slip joint involves loosening the header pipes slightly and then twisting and moving the whole thing back and forth to loosen the collector and get it to slide off. All that movement may do some damage to the gaskets during removal.

[kevins2]

Hi Dan,

It was hard to hear the noise on the video but from what I thought I heard, it sounded like an exhaust leak at the slip joint. I had such a leak and could hear it as a rattling sound mostly when shifting (during engine deceleration) and when idling. Is your noise louder on one side of the car or the other or the same from both sides? It would be strange if both sides were leaking. My slip joints are also sealed with Walker's but I was able to determine exactly which one was leaking. Laying under the car, I grabbed the collector and wiggled it. I could see movement at one of the 4 slip joints - the collector moved differently than the header. The other 3 pipes moved as a unit so could tell they were solid. It was easier than expected to remove the sidepipe, get the old Walker's off and remount. I used a more generous amount of Walkers so hopefully that solved the problem.

Kevin

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by kevins2

Hi Dan,

It was hard to hear the noise on the video but from what I thought I heard, it sounded like an exhaust leak at the slip joint. I had such a leak and could hear it as a rattling sound mostly when shifting (during engine deceleration) and when idling. Is your noise louder on one side of the car or the other or the same from both sides? It would be strange if both sides were leaking. My slip joints are also sealed with Walker's but I was able to determine exactly which one was leaking. Laying under the car, I grabbed the collector and wiggled it. I could see movement at one of the 4 slip joints - the collector moved differently than the header. The other 3 pipes moved as a unit so could tell they were solid. It was easier than expected to remove the sidepipe, get the old Walker's off and remount. I used a more generous amount of Walkers so hopefully that solved the problem.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

The rattling sound during light throttle/decel sounds like what I'm experiencing and what was causing me to look at the valve train - but maybe it is some sort of exhaust issue. I just took my exhaust system apart - didn't remove the header pipes completely from the engine but loosened them. Hoping the noise might be a slip joint, I very liberablly coated them with Walkers sealent - and the noise is still there. So this is helping to point me back to the gasket at the heads not sealing.

It does seem to be mostly on the passenger side and even in the video you might be able to tell it's louder at the passenger side rocker than it is at the driver side.

What are you using for header gaskets at the head.

Thanks

[kevins2]

Dan,

I had very liberally coated mine the first time as well, but that one pipe still managed to leak. You might try the wiggle test that I described. That won't be conclusive, as it could still be leaking in a small area rather than the entire joint coming loose. You could also closely inspect the joint to see if you can see any soot indicating a leak. As for my header gaskets, I purchased my headers ceramic coated from ERA and bought their gaskets also. I just got my ERA invoice out and it lists "Primary pipes, set of 8, with special gaskets". So, I don't know specifically what they are.

[patrickt]

I kinda like the sound of tappets.... You could always just tell everyone you have a solid flat tappet cam in there.

[DanEC]

I had the tick as soon as I started it after re-sealing and installing the exhaust so I think a manifold gasket leak is a more likely. At least it is something I can try for minimal cost and effort.

Yes Patrick - I do too, but this isn't quite the same.

[undy]

Pull the oil filter and peel the housing back. Inspect the filter media pleats for metal particles. At least that'll give an indication of severe internal problems.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by undy

Pull the oil filter and peel the housing back. Inspect the filter media pleats for metal particles. At least that'll give an indication of severe internal problems.

I haven't gone to that extent yet but as things have worked out I've ended up changing the oil at about 100 mile intervals on the car so far. KC provided 10W-30 with it so that went in right after getting it started. Then in a discussion to verify oil pressures were good, they said I really should run 15W-50 because they tend to run clearances on the looser side of normal. Changed again. Then after working on a carb the needle got stuck and had some carb flooding so I changed the oil again due to dilution but didn't have enough 'Joe Gibbs 15W-50 left so put 10W-30 in again since weather was cooling off. But each time I had a relatively minor amount of goop on the magnetic oil plug. I'll probably put 15W-50 back in shortly and I may open the oil filter up then. Changing weights of oil hasn't seemed to affect the tapping.

[sgjohns7]

I have a Shelby Engine Company 427 with a hydraulic flat tappet cam. Shelby strongly recommended Union 20W50 with ZDDP to ward against high RPM tappet wear.

[Bobcat]

Dan .. if it`s an exhaust leak , use copper hi temp Permatex sealant on the primary tube mounting flanges . Did that on all my dirt cars and also my ERA and never a leak . I`ve got almost 5 years now on the ERA flanges with zero leaks .
Leak may also be where the primaries connect to the muffler/collector . Do the same thing . Coat the OD of the primary pipes with sealant ( Wurth is excellent ... OEM for Mercedes , Audi etc ) and then assemble . Also acts as an assembly lubricant .

[DanEC]

Hi Bobcat - I'm familiar with the hi-temp permatex and I've used it on another car with manifolds with good sucess. If I felt pretty sure I could bolt these headers down one more time and be done with it for 10 years or so I would use it. But I've already removed them a couple of times and I'm afraid the clean up might be a real pain.

I prowled around on Summit and Jegs and finally ordered another set of the SCE gaskets. Some of the others like Percy and Remflex were as much or more in costs. These heads are very early high performance FE heads that Keith Craft spent a lot of time on - I think out of personal satisfaction or hobby time. They have the higher exhaust port than some of the later LR and also MR heads and it's very difficult shopping for gaskets for them on-line with any certainty of getting the right one. At least I know the SCE part number so I caved in and ordered another pair.

Thanks

[Tommy]

I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested you put one end of a length of hose to one ear and move the other end around to better locate the source of the sound.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Tommy

I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested you put one end of a length of hose to one ear and move the other end around to better locate the source of the sound.

I did try that with a length of heater hose. I tried the hose, a long-ass screwdriver and an auto stethescope. I pugged up the other ear using the hose and screwdriver. No luck - sounds like a sewing machine no matter what I use or where I use it. I've never had any luck with these things. Tried the hose around the exhaust ports but there is a lot of inaccessible area there so again - no luck. I think the increased noise coming out of the passenger side louver is the most I've been able to isolate it.

[RockBit]

I saw on an episode of Wheeler Dealers where Edd used a small piece of Kleenex to detect an exhaust leak. He moved to over the joints until it started flapping. Might work better than trying to listen.

[DanEC]

Replaced the passenger side header gasket with another SCE copper gasket today but the results were not as good as I hoped. It was evident I had gasket leaks on the old gasket as there were carbon tracks somewhere on all 4 cylinders. Each rolled bead had a low place in the same corner that leaked but #1 cyl looked to be leaking around the entire gasket. I sanded the bead lightly on the new gasket with a block to be sure it was all even (had the same low point in the bead on each cyl) and also around the port on the engine side and installed. But - still have some intermittent light ticking - although now the passenger side doesn't seem to be any louder than the driver side. So - pretty inconclusive.

Could be a collector slip fit joint although I sealed them with liberal amounts of sealer - and I have bolt tabs on all 4 exhaust header pipes on both sides so there isn't any movement at all. Or maybe a rocker arm or something.

[Gaz64]

Yes, it is a leak, either extractor flange or pipe join.

I'd do a leakdown test on the engine first, to make sure it's not a headgasket issue.

[DanEC]

I was examining the copper gasket I removed yesterday and I'm getting skeptical of these things being able to seal up tightly. The SCE ones are pretty hard and I'm not seeing any sign of crush and it looks like the engine side with the concave portion of the rolled bead is probably not sealing well. Keith ported and polished the heads and I'm not too sure the exhaust ports aren't a little oversize. I'm not sure gaskets are my issue but I think I will try something else and see what happens (if anything).

[Shootnride]

Dan,

For what it's worth, I used Felpro 1442 gaskets on mine and so far after about 4K miles they're still working fine.

Ted