Need help with Hydraulic Roller Lifters

[car4jim]

I'm working with a Robert Pond 427 side oiler engine that currently has Crane link-bar Hydraulic Roller lifters. The lifters have about 4000 engine miles so far. I need to replace two lifter pairs which I have ordered through an on-line speed shop, but Crane lifters are apparently back-logged. My order placed in December has now slipped twice and is now forecast for delivery in June. Seems to be the same story at Jegs and Summit. I can't wait until end June!!

1. Does anyone have Crane Hydraulic Roller Lifters?

2. Any recommendations on a good manufacturer if I go ahead and replace all 16 lifters with new hyd rollers? Past threads suggest Morel, but there seem to be some new market entrants for this product.

Any recommendation appreciated.

[blykins]

I pretty much use morel exclusively.

Got them in stock, $400 for the set. Would ship Monday if you want them.

[philminotti]

Crane was reorganized a couple of years ago. They stopped selling stuff then re-started. During the turmoil, I needed a replacement lifter pair for my 482 that KCR was able to sell me, fortunately. He may still have some laying around. Morel is a good product, but I'm not sure if the pushrod length required is the same. It probably is but that is not something to take for granted. I'm sure Brent or Keith or Barry could answer this though.

[car4jim]

I have my engine rev limited to 6000 RPM and have had problems in the past failing inner valve springs. I was told by the engine builder the cause was due to max rev limitations on the roller hydraulic lifters. I guess the premise here is by the time the rev limiter senses and limits the engine to 6000 RPM, the engine has overshot to 6300 or more RPM and the springs fail (valve float I assume). I have a steel flywheel which probably isn't helping. I've seen threads that say to rev limit the engine to 5700 RPM to address this problem.

Will the Morel lifters improve this situation, or same problem with all brands of hydraulic roller lifters.

Are there direct replacement lifters to go solid roller, or am I looking at a can shaft change?

[Dwight]

I've seen Keith Craft's 427 s.o. / 487 c.i. on 7,000 rpms a couple of times and 6700 several times
No spring or lifter problems for thousands of miles.

Dwight

[philminotti]

Hmmm. I'd be more suspicious of coil bind or bad geometry than over-revving for spring failure. My engine just rolls over at about 6k, but springs don't break. There are short travel hydraulic lifters for the FE, but I'm not sure that's the problem here. And Brent can certainly correct me, but running a typical roller juice lifter to 7k is absurd. Solid roller for sure but not hydraulic.

[philminotti]

And don't run solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. Just don't.

[blykins]

I compare notes with a lot of the other builders.

The FE that Keith built that went to 7000 with hydraulic rollers had titanium valves...big difference.

You're normally going to see 6000-6200 before you lose control of the valvetrain on a hydraulic roller FE. You can do things to extend that, but some of them start getting exotic....titanium valves....short travel Morel lifters with *solid roller* spring pressure, etc.

The Morels are pretty much the best you can buy. I've used a few of the other brands, including Crane, but I can't attest to where the pushrod seat is.

[RET_COP]

If your geometry was good to begin with , order the set from Brent, measure the seat height difference, if there is one, change the pushrod length to get back to where you were. JUNE!!! no way
What did you do, break a set of roller lifters from over reving?
Can the others be far behind?
Have you pulled the springs to see what the seat pressure is and has it fallen off?
I just did my whole valvetrain over this winter, it's a case of one thing leads to another and another. I replaced everything and took a hard look at my geometry.

[RICK LAKE]

car4jim JIm What happened to the lifters you are replacing?? Is there and Damage to the camshaft lobes? Do you have a couple of pictures with the damage? How big is the lift on the camshaft?
To the best of my knowledge Johnson and Morel at the ONLY ones making good lifters. They also make them for alot of other companies, Like Crane.
I have been running hydro lifters for 12 years from crane. Here's what I have learned,
Max safe rpm is 5,800 rpms. The lifter don't bleed down and you get valve float unless you are running high pressure valve springs. At 6,500 these lifters hydro lock and are done period. These lifters are heavy. I have cheated the problem with having a valve lash of .015" compression of the plunger in the lifter. This is with the correct geometery and keeping the roller tip in the center of the valve. I forget the pushrod length. It's 8 something. Valve springs, I have been running a set of beehives for 15 years of the 26120's. My hydro camshaft is the small roller at .587"-.607" No sure if they even have the camshaft any more. Great torquye and midrange power. [i] have a setup of erson rockers on the heads. IMO I am at the limit of these valve springs and valve train in safety. My lifters hydro lock at 57-5800 rpm but because of the valve lash I can push to 6,200rpm without a major loss of power. The valve train is still floating but has held so far. Alot of guys don't like the single spring on their heads because of breaking springs. Some times the dampener spring will hold up the retainer and not let the valve kiss Mr. piston and major damage. I take my chances. There are new beehives out with higher spring rates. You are saving 20-60 grams per valve with this setup alone. The motor is also a little quicker to accell. I know of a couple of guys who broke beehives from too tight a spring bind and broke off the bottom spring coil. The say clearance is .080" Some guys are running .060" I had work done to have .100" clearance. The spring are banging on each other with this tight of coil clearance. The valve train is also very heavy in this motor too. I good reason for solid rollers also if you are going to beat on the car. If you are really serious, pull the motor and goto .904 lifters and forgetaboutit. This is my tests and what I have done. Question time.
A couple of pictures would be nice to see the damage.
You said 2 pairs of lifters need to be replaced, what broke??
Camshaft, either pull it or check it very carefully for grooves or damage to the lobes. This will destory a new lifter quick. This doen't include the metal damage going through your motor.
What is the camshaft specs?
Get rid of the steel flywheel, that's a spinning grenade even if SFI tested and approved. 18-22 pound is all you need. Aluminum flywheel with a steel insert.
Info on your driving and abuse. If you are breaking dampeners there is something wrong with the valve train geometery.
If you are going to drive hard, change camshaft and lifters. Will need new pushrods also. A little more maintainance for valve lash will be needed. I would still limit this motor to no more than 6,500 rpms. Put a 6,200 rpm chip in the ignition module or distributor module.
Last thing, oiling of the rockers and heads, What limiters are in them if any? Are any of the adjuster on the rockers blue in color or the tips of the pushrods? How many valve springs have been broken on this motor??
You may have a double problem here.
Not trying to bust balls but giving correct info will help get you back running and prevent more damage to this motor. Balls in your court. Rick L. if you want to talk more, sent a pm with info on contact. You also have a great FE builder in Fresno. Joe B. NObody knows more than him about building FE motors. Rick L. 7322543536 call if you want in the evening.

[RET_COP]

If you use the expensive hydraulic roller lifters you can use high spring pressures and with no bleed down and Rev easily to high 6000s if your combination requires it. You will pay but you get results. Most engine combinations. Don't need them . Also having your rocker tip in the middle of the valve stem is not the indicator for good geometry. You can be centered and way off causing undue loading and stress, which can lead to worn parts are breakage. The valve train seems to be the least understood and most overlooked area in the motor which cost horsepower and worn parts.
Why did something break,!? I would not piecemeal a valvetrain.

[philminotti]

Lou-

For the FE, only Morel has short travel lifters... They're not much more expensive than the regular ones, but there is almost no data from the experienced builders about them on the FE sites. Like Brent said, ability to live at those revs is really a function of valvetrain mass. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but based on your header, you're playing with a Windsor? Huge difference between that and an FE with regards to valvetrain mass. Not trying to be argumentative, and I apologize if my assumption is wrong...

[RET_COP]

Phil, all good, I take it as back and forth knowledge and constant learning from guys like you, Rick and Brent.
I was coming from a small Block standpoint, I can see that the FEs are a different animal.
There has to be a reason why just the inner Springs are failing and two lifters gone. Are outer spring good? If so why? Maybe we'll get more information. A lot needs to be looked at before two lifters are replaced. . And thanks for the info.

[car4jim]

Thanks for all the responses. I do appreciate Rick Lakes detail question line. I think I will call as suggested to go over some of the details. Here is some info on my problem. I'm working with a high-end FE crate motor to makes about 600 HP and 600 ft-lbs. This car is a weekend cruiser, no racing or abuse. The repair started when I replaced all of my valve springs. Unfortunately when I went to lighten down the lifter banks. Push rods were not centered in hydraulic cups and I broke the casting lip/edge off on two lifters which is why I need to replace two pairs. I do not believe there is anything wrong with my cam shaft.

[CHANMADD]

Should have told us it was bad mechanicing .......

[CHANMADD]

Just remember that everything above the cam ....lifter ,pushrod,rod,valve and spring are all controlled by the valve spring ...right....one little spring or two........

[car4jim]

Tough crowd....there's more to the story. I'll provide more info later.

[philminotti]

I am very curious about why you needed/decided to change all your valvesprings. Not a trivial bit of work...especially if the heads are on the motor and the motor's in the car. I definitely don't envy that job at all.

[RICK LAKE]

car4jim Jim we all want to help get your car back on the road. We also want to know if there is a problem with a part or parts in your motor from poor and bad machining. Do lifters go bad, YES. Do rocker arm bearings fail, YES. This way WE can stay on top of a problem and get help from whgo ever sells the parts. Companies also need feed back for their products and need to know if there is or could be a problem and how to fix it. Large companies call them RECALLS, small companies say send the damaged parts back to us and we will look at it.
WE all make mistakes building and assembling motors, even the pros. The jackass mechanic that works on my car is really out in space some times. We all use the same parts, does not matter who's name is on the box. Been told that there is only 2 US companies making lifters, or use the word assembly them. Not sure where the parts are coming from since this country has no steel mills left. Edelbrock has made and built in the US, not sure on this either for lifters.
If I sound ruff or hard in the thread, I'm SORRY. The truth took a while to come to the surface. There was a mistake made, thats it. we move forward, fix and repair. Just want to make sure no other damage happens to your motor.
If the dampeners are breaking in the heads, IMO there is something wrong with the valve spring binding or the dampeners binding under max lift. You could have gotten the correct outter springs and the wrong inner dampeners. It does happen. As far as changing valve springs or dampeners, KD sells a small valve spring compressor to do this in the car. All you need is an air compresssor or rope in the cylinder and rotate the crank shaft to TDC. This will keep the valves from dropping out of the headCheck the valve stem seals for damage also. If in doult, replace them. You are already there. Good luck will wait for the rest of the story. I am hoping for a book of new movie myself. Rick L.

[car4jim]

No worries Rick. Just trying to have a little fun with Chanmadd! I need help. Here is more of the saga.

I changed the entire spring set with a general theory that there may have been a quality issue with the lot of inner springs used in my heads. Then recalibrate my REV limiter down to 5700 RPM, problem solved? I agree with Phil, no small task to change a complete set of springs, especially working over the fender of an aluminum car. Using 100 psig of shop air pressure to spark plug hole and a lever fork spring compression tool, I successfully very carefully replaced all the inner and outer springs. I also re- shimmed a couple of the rocker arms on the Erson rocker banks to better center the roller tips over the valve stem ends. Let's get back to the springs later. Here is the problem that evolved. So I broke two of the lifters with the push rods not properly centered in the lifter cups. When I realized what happened, I was able to fish out the broken metal with a magnet. Inspecting the broken lifter, the main body and snap ring was still intact even though the edge was broken, so I adjust the rockers and decided to fire up the engine. Now as the engine warms, I have a lifter tap. More monkeying and it seems like the tapping lifter is not pumping-up. Valve covers back off, I was able to fish out one of the affected lifter pairs and replace with a used Crane hydro roller lifter from a friends engine. He had broken lifters in the same fashion and replaced all his lifters; I was obviously not the first to break these Crane lifters. Back together again, same lifter tap and same lifter is not pumping up. Now I’m really ticked off…I walk away for a month. Back to trouble shooting, I borrow a cut open valve cover to run the engine with valve train exposed. I was able to determine the lifter affected would stop ticking if I adjusted down to the bottom of hydraulic travel, down to solid lifter. Now I decide to fish the affected lifter back out and try to swap with the lifter pair next piston over not ticking. Long story short after significant surgery, I was not able to fish the other lifter back into place. Since I can’t reinstall the lifters, time to pull intake manifold. I’ve done that in this engine…again, no small task. I walk away again.
Theory 1: I replaced a bad lifter with another bad lifter. What are the chances?? It was a used lifter with no working history??!! Possible??
Theory 2: The second broken lifter (still in place) was causing the other lifter not to pump up and therefore the tapping lifter. Not very plausible since I assume all lifters in one side would not pump up due to low oil pressure to hydro lifters.
Due to oil leaks and a very dirty engine and engine compartments, I decide to pull the engine, fix oil leaks (I know, its, an FE). Pull the intake and replace lifters. I want to know I have replacement lifters before I take the engine completely out of the car. Now I have trust issues with the Crane Lifters from what I‘ve heard from you guys and will probably replace them all with Morels. I did not have a ticking lifter before changing the valve springs, but then broken lifers and who knows what else. Thoughts on what you have read before I proceed?