Does this motor rebuild sound fair?

[olaf herrick]

Hey guys, I 'm hoping to get your opinion on the price I was quoted on rebuilding my 427 SO. $3900 it includes keith Black pistons 10:1 $700, rings $180 filefit, solid roller lifters $400. roller cam $370 , 8 intake valves $144, all bearings $200, gasket set $190. push rods $180, rocker shafts $190, mag crank and rods, hone to 10 over, turn down crank 10-10, assemble heads and seat new valves, assemble motor. check line bore and deck. set up and dial in new bellhousing and balance motor externally. The motor was a race motor and was sleeved completly and is 12:1 at 7 over currently, the 428 crank is virgin, the heads were flow ported already and oil passage work is already done. The timing chain and oil pump are already new and the heavy duty rod bolts were already installed. What do you think ? I looked in PAW and the parts prices were high on some items, 2700 parts and 1200 labor . Thanks for any input you can give me .Olaf

[Jeff Frigo]

Doesn't sound too bad, but do you really want to go with a solid roller cam? If you do, you need to pull the lifters out every 3,000 - 4,000 miles to check for wear on the needle bearings in the rollers. If one lifter comes apart, you will have all of those needles going through your motor destroying evrything.



Jeff

[MOTORHEAD]

Presently building my 427 alum block. Prices you mentioned seem
to be close to what I'm paying. I'm getting some parts through
mail order discounters, and some through local speed shops. ( I do this when I need their expert advice, and I feel its only fair to
pay a little more and buy from them.)
BTW I also was considering a roller cam, but EVERY engine builder
I talked to advised against it, due to the extreme valve spring
pressure required and the attendant wear and maintenance.
Best of Luck.

[Cobranut]

Olaf,

A far as price goes, that sounds like a very good deal, but check the reputation of the builder before turning over your rare and expensive sideoiler block to him.

As far as a roller cam goes, the biggest problem with running a solid roller on the street is short valvespring life.
Due to the extra weight of the lifters and the extremely fast opening and closing rate of most roller cam profiles, they require very high spring rates and high end (ie: expensive) valvetrain components. They generate a lot of heat and fatigue in the springs, which results in their weakening and failure.

The late model factory roller stuff has very mild profiles and hydraulic roller lifters, but there's little performance gain with them either.

I went with a flat tappet cam from Ultradyne and lightweight shell lifters.

If you'd like, send me an email with the shop that gave you that price. I may be able to send them some business if they check out alright.

Thanks,

[olaf herrick]

The shop is in Baltimore MD, Tom at JB's is very knowlegible with FE motors. The guy that sold me the motor has had Jb's freshen up the motor every 3 years for the last 10 + years and recommended them 100%. They have a great reputation among my local race cronnies. Tom builds lots of race FE motors and knows the tricks. I was just concerned with the cost it seemed high since my motor was already modified for most race tricks prior to my purchase. Tom is actually detunning it for me to accept my street driving (racing). I will ask him about the roller setup .Thanks for your input , email me and I will get the phone number.Olaf

[RICK LAKE]

Hi Olaf What are you going to do with this car? Roller cams are nice for out and out racing. On the street it is not needed Your engine builder should tell you a good cam for the engine you are building and the driving you are going to do. You need to call around and get prices from all over. I built an alum. Shelby motor for 12,500.00$ I assemblyed the top of the motor myself. the short block was assembled by my machinist. The bottom end was blueprinted and balanced. Get a price on arias pistons. Hydro lifters are nice and do not need alot of adjustment after the motor is set up. You didnot say how much horsepower you wanted, so I would start their. I think must people building cobras learn that the hard way. Hope this gets you heading in the right direction. ASK QUESTIONS TO AS MANY MEMBERS ON CLUB COBRA AS POSSIBLE!!! Then make a choice. Good Luck Rick Lake

[olaf herrick]

Thanks for the reply, my intention is to use this car as a weekend cruiser and make a couple of drag runs. The chassis of the car is setup for road racing and I havent ruled that out either. I currently have a 390 in the car , which runs well but its not a 2 four 427. I would like to have a motor in the 500 hp reliable catagory. The car has a Tremac 5speed and a 411 9" rear. I want a motor that sounds throaty(everyone that hears it must know there is a strong motor in her) and responds very well. Currently I have a Dove 2X4 intake with Holley 600 carbs for my 427So .The motor has the roller setup in it so thats why I figured to stay with it. The springs and Dove roller rockers are in great shape but the machine shop found 4 roller lifters with small cracks , so they recommended replacing the set. So should I forgo the roller setup for a hydrolic setup? I plan on putting 2-4000 miles a year on my machine.Thanks Olaf

[RICK LAKE]

HI Olaf The motor you have sounds good. You sound like you want to do the same I do with the car. Here my car and combo. ERA car, 452 Alum Shelby motor. 9.2 to 1 compression, 501-533 cam, Novi 2000 Paxton supercharger, Fuel injection from speed-pro, 6-speed nash trans, 3.31 rear Jag rear. Car idles at 800 rpm and passes 95 emmissions in NJ. I Built my car to do all around playing with. the motor puts out 328 rwhp and 422 tor. rwp. It will break the tires loose in 3 gears, without the supercharger. It makes over 550hp and is an animal to drive with the boost. except for the exhaust nobody hears you coming and its quiet all the time. You might want to look at turbos or a supercharger and have alot of power and enjoyment without a ton a maintanance. I have been to Northeastern challenge and run@gun and had a great time and no breakage. I run B.F. Goodrich tires, which are not the greatest, but will not break the drive train. The trans is at it's limit for h.p. and torque. 450 on both. Most people do not like my set up, but I get in the car and it starts right up in any condition and runs great. It was alot of work to get it set up but is worth it. Driviablitity is the greatest thing about these cars. 12.5 compression is old school, (been there, done that) If you are going for origanal car you are going great. I Feel that this is the way of the future and it works for me. Heads,Intake, and Exhaust all need to work together. The car will only EXECPT so much power Good Luck Rick Lake

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Olaf......
When you use any of the Keith Black pistons for the FE's you have to narrow the pin end of your rods to accomodate the chevy 1" width.....and I was not aware that KB offered a 427 bore piston at+.007 +.010 = 4.250" for a 428 3.980 stroke crankshaft.....you better check that one a bit closer or perhaps he's using a 454 piston for your application?...perhaps an exact Arias piston would be better suited, there forged and the same price.....

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/1toc.htm

The rings seem about 50$ to high, Lifters seem in the ball park as do the valves if they are Ferrea or equal....
why do your Dove Rollers need new Shafts?
This price seems very cheap to me....I'd be check ing all the operations he's offering verfy carefully...
Just some thoughts...
I agree with the comments about the roller cam.....but I run one on the street....and yes at 4-5K miles start expecting some replacement parts on the roller lifters etc...
George

[olaf herrick]

Thanks Rick and George , do either of you know if I can use a Hydrolic lift cam and lifters to acheive my desired 500+ HP with my 2X4 setup (1200 cfm)? I want a lobby cam but I dont want alot of hesitation from the line. I will check with the machine shop Monday about the pistons( and ask for Forged ones) , I heard previously that Arias pistons were of very good quallity but pricy. The bore is currently 7 thousands over and with a Hone they plan to acheive the desired 10 thousands over. The machine shop said one rocker shaft was cracked. The previous owner cracked the 428 crank , an intake valve and 4 roller lifters. I found a non-machined 428 crank and they are suppling the other parts. Thanks Olaf

Ps. Do intake valves take more of a beating than exsaust valves in race applications?

[Cobranut]

Olaf,

Most sideoiler blocks do not have the oil galleys for hydraulic lifters, the exception being the 1968 service block, so you may be restricted to solids.
I like the sound of the solid lifters anyway, it adds character.

Pick George Anderson's brain, he's our resident FE expert.

Later,

[RICK LAKE]

Hi Olaf. The motor I assemblied is different from what you are running. I make 500+ hp with boost. George builds them with compression and has been doing it for years. I have seen george race for years and not break his car at the Run&Gun events. Last year his car ran in the low 11's all day long, he made about 10 test runs and his car is solid in performance. For me to build a 500+ horsepower motor I do not need a large cam. Tell George what you want and how you want it and see what he can build for you? George would have won the drag racing IF the red light syndrome. I am shore he will cure this problem in the near furture. Jessel makes a great roller lifter, but I was told that it needs a pre oiler or damage happens to the rollers in these lifters. I want to get a roller cam for my car, hydrolic style. custom cam. 500 horsepower is a lot for a 2500 lb car. I hope you are smart enought to treat your snake with respect or you will get bitten an possibly hurt badly. I have seen this happen before. I am not trying to scare you. It is just a warning! Good luck with george or who ever, ask around on the net what cam other people are using and how they like it. Rick Lake

[olaf herrick]

Thanks for the advise, my intention is to be careful with the car ,a 500HP 2500LB car is alot to reckon with so I will press the accelerator with much respect. I think I'm going to use the solid roller setup but the cam size is still a descision I must make. I know I can have the current 705 lift cam reground and I think I'm going to opt for a 605 lift . The car will have 2 Holleys (600) but I dont want any hesitation if possible. Thanks again.Olaf

[olaf herrick]

I talked to the machine shop on Monday and they were Ok with my providing my own parts. I ordered a set of Arias pistons 10:1 with the stroked 428 crank and my 78cc heads from PAW but they said Speedpro has discontinued the rings (any ideas?). They also said that the bearings(main and rods) differ from year to year. Does this sound correct? My last descision is whether to go roller or solid lifter cam setup. George I would appreciate your advice , I know the roller stuff is more expensive , but several people have told me that the reliability for a 2500 mile a year car is OK. The only reason for me to concider the setup is for performance and if you think I can achieve a 500HP motor with 10:1 pistons and a conventional drive train I'm there.I was opting for a 605 lift cam from Lunati. Thanks for any input.Olaf

[chopper]

Olaf:

Possible alert here. I had dealings with an "FE expert" in the Baltimore area about five years ago. Trusted him to rebuild my damaged 427 engine. Bottom line was a ten month, mega-dollar nightmare which suffered catastrophic failure 1200 miles later while cruising at 60 mph down the interstate. I now have a replacement engine from Southern Automotive and the lawsuits just recently got settled. The reason I'm bringing this up was the initials of the so-called mechanic in my case were JB and he ran a marine shop, "specializing" in FE engines and high-speed boats. The local mechanic who I used for the removal/installation also got screwed royally by this individual, as apparently did many others in the Baltimore boating community. Your guy may not be the same person, but I understand that the jerk who botched up my engine has declared bankruptcy and reopened under different names about four times since then. For obvious reasons, I don't wish to post names here but if you drop me an e-mail, I'll fill you in on the details.

[Jack21]

Some additional $.02 here.

First, go to the local 7-11 magazine rack and pick up a copy of Street Rodder. They dyno tested a built up 390 FE punched out to 434 ci. See some of the parts they used.

You can get 500 hp out of a stroker 351, doing it with a bb shouldn't be a problem. Looking over the prices seems a little high, but not wildly high. Couple of things that I noticed though.

KB pistons. These are hypereutectic cast pistons. Don't get me wrong. They are a good street use mostly, and ocassional drag piston. They fit a lot tighter than forged pistons and maintain a better ring seal. For an engine that sees most of its life under 5500 RPM, they're very good. If you're going to race this motor, go with the forged pistons.

Solid roller cam. Typically, solid roller cams are race use, not street use cams. The roller lifters are not made for sustained highway driving. Crane Cams (the cam used in the SRM test engine) and Competition Cams make retrofit hydraulic roller cams for popular older motors not originally equipped with roller cams. Hydraulic rollers are awsome, and very streetable. Just don't go wild with the duration or you'll kill your bottom end. 224I/234E in a dual pattern cam is plenty. You can prolong valvespring life by getting them polymer coated with an oil retentive coating. Keeps the springs wetted with oil which helps keep them cool. When I sent my headers & sidepipes off to the coatings ship, I sent the valvesprings too. Different coating for different purpose.

There's a machine shop just off I95N, two exits North of the DC Beltway going towards Baltimore. Burtonsville Speed & Machine. Shop manager is Chuck. Knowlegeable bunch of guys, and a clean, professional looking shop.

[olaf herrick]

Thanks a lot for the information, I posted this thread on the FE forum also and I appreciate George answering on both forums. I took all the info I gleened here and on the Fe forum and asked my local speed shop . Per your advise I posted earlier that I ordered Arias forged pistons. I also decided to go with a solid lifter cam I have a setup like this in my Boss 302 Mustang and I have had little trouble. My wavering was because the motor when I bought it already contained the roller cam, lifters,springs and rockers but the machine shop I'm using found some abnormal wear and suggested I replace the lifters and cam. So thanks again and sorry about the redundancy.Olaf