FE Fail

[Grubby]

Brent,

Good post. You handled this as professionally as possible. You offered a repair; what else could he want.

Mr. 601 is in question since he changed his name for the post. What is he trying to hide?

John

[MOTORHEAD]

John: Name change has been covered in previous post, has no bearing on this matter.
How about we all show some restraint and leave this thread be until after the Holiday ???

[vref120]

I had a 408W engine from a well known builder that had issues when I first got my car. They went out of their way to make it right to the point of just building a new engine for me. No blood slinging on this forum and the outcome was a great new engine and a customer for life. Nobody's perfect. It happens. It's a learning experience for all involved. BTW, not a single problem with my new 427. Thanks Keith at KeithCraft.

[Bernica]

I have had a saying in the construction business for years: "every building you build is a prototype, no two are the same". And as such, you can never be perfect. The best you can do is be ready and willing to address problems as they arise.

[twobjshelbys]

Regarding the user name change, my opinion does not change. Opinions are formed on first impressions and the impression is not good, regardless. Seeing someone with 7 posts ragging on his supplier don't bode well for a straight up relationship. And saying there is a name change doesn't repair the damage done.

In specialized areas like this customer/vendor relations work both ways. Customers choose a vendor based on reputation. It goes the other way too, vendors can choose to work with a customer based on reputation. I sure hope Mr. 101 can work it out with Brent because the chances of him doing it with anyone else here are almost nil.

Good luck though.

[redmt]

I can tell you from personal experience that Brent is a straight up guy. I'm not saying that David isn't. I know he changed his screen name on a couple forums. It had nothing to do with hiding anything. I'm not sure about the educational aspects of it all. If you had a problem with one of my engines and took it to somebody else, the game would be over unless I approved it first. From the outside looking in, I say that 601 just bought himself a warranty exclusion.

[rodneym]

I only know HTM101 (601HP, David) and blykins (Brent) from online but I'm not going to hold the events against either one. I know David to be a detail freak and committed hobbyist with a badass Cobra, and Brent to be a very talented builder and straight shooter who spends more time on "KC's" forum than all other builders combined (for a while, anyways).
It's unfortunate that these things happen, because builder and customer need to be a team, not adversaries.
David - Allowing the builder, especially one as reputable as Brent, to take a shot at warranty work might have been the better option, IMHO. Afterwords, if you weren't happy and couldn't come to an agreement, then that's a different story. But I know how you feel, believe me.
Brent (and all builders for that matter) - You guys live in the build and tear down world, with grease in the cracks of your skin. For you, it's business as usual. Forgive us (all of us) who get upset at an engine/builder where the there's leaks, consumption, failure, etc. We know you guys do your best. To deal with 15 different vendors on a build, whose parts don't have a real history of working together, must be a freakin' nightmare, no matter how reputable the companies are. These toys aren't cheap and we expect a lot. Having your heart broken while using "the best" is a tough pill to swallow.
This thread saddens me. This was a breakdown between two good people.

[rodneym]

(double post)

[DanEC]

[quote=HTM101;1372771]

By the time I had dismantled the engine to a short block condition, I realized my original expectations hadn't been met for a number of reasons. I then evaluated quite a few factors, and decided to decline the warranty offer.

David


Members can try to struggle with keeping an open mind on this, but until you provide a rational reason for not exercising the warranty rights you had with the original builder - I don't think there will be much sympathy here.

[undy]

[quote=DanEC;1372807]

Originally Posted by HTM101

By the time I had dismantled the engine to a short block condition, I realized my original expectations hadn't been met for a number of reasons. I then evaluated quite a few factors, and decided to decline the warranty offer.

David


Members can try to struggle with keeping an open mind on this, but until you provide a rational reason for not exercising the warranty rights you had with the original builder - I don't think there will be much sympathy here.

I agree.

Cryptic posts do nothing except heighten the drama. The lid's already been kicked off Pandora's Box. What lied inside needs to be discussed... or forgotten, at least here on the forum.

[HTM101]

If we were talking about a couple bent pushrods or stuck valve, maybe some broken valve springs, there would have been no opposition to warranty work. But....there were too many failures going on. By the time I pulled the heads I guessed the engine was destroying itself. Add to that some denials, differences of opinion and outright poor logic proffered for some conditions, I opted to walk away.

Here's the current punch list. There are more items coming.
1. An intake manifold that detached from all head ports, enough to allow crankcase oil invasion. When reinstalled, it detached from 6 head ports within 75 miles. When reinstalled the 3rd time it detached from 4 ports within 15 miles of driving. However, this intake had been mounted on my prior engine for 15,000 miles without exhibiting any issue of this type.
2. 18 heavily chafed pushrods (2 complete sets had been installed); the result of 7/16" diameter pushrods installed in an intake originally designed for 5/16" diameter pushrods. The pushrod tubes of the intake had not been modified to accommodate the larger pushrod. I was advised repeatedly that pushrod rubbing is ok and contributes to pushrod alignment.
3. 9 quarts of oil consumed in 900 miles.
4. Measurable valve guide wear.
5. All 8 cylinder sleeves seated .005" - .0065" below the deck of the block. The head gaskets didn't show evidence of leakage, yet.
6. Severe compression ring wear. The resulting high crankcase pressure caused oil belching from breathers and created other damage.
7. All bearings contaminated and impregnated with compression ring wear debris.
8. All piston skirts contaminated and impregnated with compression ring debris.
9. 85% of the oil-retention cylinder wall cross-hatching is scrubbed off in every cylinder. The cylinder walls are scuffed with vertical marks by the prematurely worn compression rings. However, in an attempt to rationalize my engine's wear, I was advised by the assembler that he inspected a circle track race engine in late September. That engine of reference had endured an entire season of track time. The circle track race engine's cross-hatch had worn off. I was advised my engine's loss of cross hatch during 903 miles of street driving should be of no concern.
10. The cam gear teeth exhibit .030"+ wear, all teeth.

Its been an education.

[redmt]

The big question I have is why you wouldn't take it back to the builder? It seems that you took it upon yourself to do the forensics? If that's the case, why then didn't you build the motor yourself in the first place if you think that you know more than Brent? Doesn't make sense to me.

[HTM101]

Originally Posted by redmt

The big question I have is why you wouldn't take it back to the builder? It seems that you took it upon yourself to do the forensics? If that's the case, why then didn't you build the motor yourself in the first place if you think that you know more than Brent? Doesn't make sense to me.

Good question.

I can measure and assemble. Neither of us has a machine shop. I took the engine to a builder with his own machines.

[redmt]

Originally Posted by HTM101

Good question.

I can measure and assemble. Neither of us has a machine shop. I took the engine to a builder with his own machines.

So in that sense you had no intention of collecting or taking advantage of any warranty. Next question. Why did you bring your tale of woe out on this forum? You had no intention of letting Brent make good so was your intention just to **** talk him? What was the purpose? I'm not siding with anybody just asking.

[philminotti]

"I was advised repeatedly that pushrod rubbing is ok and contributes to pushrod alignment".

I find this statement so absurd and out of character, that both parties should comment on it.
The remainder of the problems can probably all be traced to a single cascading failure mode. JMO.

[Detroit Bill]

I like to post things that add to the collective knowledge for the next guy. I believe you mentioned that as your motivation. I don't see any value in the information you have provided nor do I see the value of dribbling out the information. Say what you have to say, all of it. Or have you already?l

[blykins]

Sure Phil, I think that's a fair request.

The answer is that I was misquoted. I didn't say that it provides alignment, I said that it can provide stability. Rubbing can occur without consequence and in circumstances such as this, with lift approaching .800" and spring pressures almost as high, even a 7/16" diameter pushrod will deflect. If it can lean against the pushrod tube on full deflection, it can gain stability, just as a guideplate gives stability on a SBF application.

Most of this saga has been chasing an oil usage issue. His intake was a Dove piece that had been heavily ported by Keith Craft (both the intake and cylinder heads were reused from a previous engine). It had porosity issues and in David's own words, he thought it was structurally flimsy. Most FE oil usage cases can be nailed down to intake manifold/gasket problems but most guys aren't mechanically inclined enough or willing enough to do the work themselves. In the matter of knocking out the easy explanations first, I sent David a replacement set of valve seals as well as some oil restricting pushrods just to try. It didn't solve the problem so instead of bringing the engine 12 hours back to me, we agreed that he would do an intake gasket swap. It was at the end of 2 gasket swaps that he made the above comments about his intake manifold and wanted to look for another. It had even showed some pin hole leaks when he pressure tested it.

I offered to send him a Performer RPM to try just to eliminate variables, but he decided to drive to Ohio instead and bought an NOS Tunnel Wedge. It was at this point that he had the flanges cut so the ports would line up and began to clearance the pushrod tubes. (BTW, a 3/8" pushrod was what the intake was designed for, not 5/16".). He got that completed and we decided that it would be prudent to remove the heads and clean them.

He sent me bore pictures and the cylinders showed a little less hatch than what I would expect, but there again, I was looking at a picture and he was 12 hours away. I then asked him to bring the engine to me so I could take a look in person. I think I also made the comment that it would be nice if he threw the new intake on, just so we could eliminate any variables. If someone brings me an engine and claims it's using oil, there's a lot of stuff to check (especially on an FE) and any help is appreciated. It would have been nice to eliminate the intake as a variable.

That's as far as we got.

Now, to address the other items:

Sleeves move in an aluminum block. We try to catch all of this at machining time by heating the block, putting torque plates on, squeezing the sleeves down, and then deck the block. Under normal operation and heat cycles, sleeves can set a little more over time, but that's why Robert Pond recommends a Felpro 1020 gasket, because the fire ring matches the sleeve perfectly. That's why it didn't leak.

This engine had custom Total Seal piston rings, about a $375 set. They are .043/.043/3mm and have a STEEL top ring. Normally extreme wear issues are caused by a lack of lubrication, clearance issues, or extreme heat. As I mentioned before, I make mistakes like everyone else, but I haven't seen this engine since Halloween of 2014 and I don't know if it had experienced cylinder wash, had been overheated, or what. I have to be completely objective in all situations, but I try to be fair as well.

As for valve guide wear and dist gear, not sure on that one, but there again I never got to see it for myself. Valve guide wear would be accelerated on an engine such as this, just from extreme lift and valve spring pressure, but I would expect them to last much longer than 900 miles, so I'm not sure. There again, I was mindful of the oil usage and cylinder appearances, but have not seen the engine to notice the other items that were mentioned.

Once again, I'm not into the "back and forth" on a post such as this, but Phil wanted an answer to a statement made and I thought that was a fair request. Will not post again, but I do have all emails saved if necessary.

[Detroit Bill]

How much power did this make?

[blykins]

I can't remember exactly, but it was within 20hp of making 700 hp. 496 cubes, pump gas.

[cobrakiwi]

(Most of this saga has been chasing an oil usage issue. His intake was a Dove piece that had been heavily ported by Keith Craft (both the intake and cylinder heads were reused from a previous engine). It had porosity issues and in David's own words, he thought it was structurally flimsy. Most FE oil usage cases can be nailed down to intake manifold/gasket problems but most guys aren't mechanically inclined enough or willing enough to do the work themselves. In the matter of knocking out the easy explanations first, I sent David a replacement set of valve seals as well as some oil restricting pushrods just to try. It didn't solve the problem so instead of bringing the engine 12 hours back to me, we agreed that he would do an intake gasket swap. It was at the end of 2 gasket swaps that he made the above comments about his intake manifold and wanted to look for another. It had even showed some pin hole leaks when he pressure tested it.)

Brent questions if I may,

So who built this engine? You or Keith Craft? this part of your post makes it sound like you are distancing your self, Did the heads get rebuilt? by whom?
(You make it sound like they where the old heads just thrown on) did the heads get updated to handle the cam, springs rockers etc, valves, new, old? heads, crack tested? pressure tested?
Did you test intake fit? pressure test?, knowing it's a Dove part and had been heavily ported by Keith Craft.

I do think David should have sent the engine back to you, I also believe you would have stood behind your work, sorry to both parties, but please be clear for us that do find this interesting.