What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[RodKnock]

1. Big blocks are heavy and lightening the front end to make the car more nimble was certainly the main factor in choosing an aluminum block.

2. There was a certain symmetry with having an aluminum block in an aluminum body with a billet aluminum suspension and wheels and an alloy differential.

3. Back in 2008, there wasn't a shortage of aluminum blocks and, from memory, Genesis was one of the only producers of new iron FE blocks and they were having casting/porosity issues with their blocks at that time.

4. The price difference was relatively negligible. New FE blocks were roughly $3,500-$4,000. The Pond alloy block was $4,000-$4,500. And the Shelby alloy block $5,000-$5,500. I can't remember the figures exactly, but that's ball park.

5. The rumor mill or "I had heard" that the mating of alloy heads to the cast iron block caused metallurgical issues, which in turn caused sealing problems and oil leaks. And most sports cars today have all alloy engines, so that was somewhat comforting at the time.

6. Bragging rights. Yes, we all have egos.

Would my decision be different today? Maybe, even probably, depending on various circumstances like shortages, block casting problems, etc. Today, I'd be more likely to choose a cast iron block than 8 years ago.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Well, I don't know enough about the engine building business to know how far you can successfully "hedge your risk." You know a certain percentage of a certain type of build will incur problems. If you hedged all of those builds, with a surcharge, that charge, combined, could cover the costs of fixing the occasional crapper. That's how you do it in most markets. But from a business perspective, you don't turn down business. Instead, adopt this mantra: If you throw enough money at me, I will do it. I might not succeed, but I will do it.

EDIT: and more often than not, you will succeed.

Engine building doesn't have actuarial tables with thousands of customers ranging from the age of 1-100. Nothing wrong with managing risk as a business person. If alloy blocks have issues and cause Brent warranty problems, and he'll sleep better at night, then I have no problem telling customers that he won't build any more engines with alloy blocks until further notice. He'll suffer a loss of business, but then he's backed up anyway.

These engines are $20,000-ish +/-, so having a few go bad, could bankrupt a person.

[blykins]

Just to address those...

These days the Pond aluminum block is $5600 and up. Shelby is about $1000 higher.

BBM iron block is around $3500 I think.

Absolutely no issue whatsoever with running aluminum heads on cast iron blocks. Zero. There are actually more chances of leaks with the all-aluminum FE engines than the cast iron/aluminum pieces. Plus, I recommend that all my all-aluminum customers run Moroso Ceramic Seal through the tank on an initial install. Don't have to do that on a "hybrid" engine.

A lot of your OEM combinations are all-aluminum. However, they have OEM quantity, OEM manufacturing, and OEM foundries behind them. Big difference.

Personally, knowing all that I know, I wouldn't consider an aluminum block a bragging right, but I could see where it could be taken that way. Same way as bragging about having a "6-speed".

By the way, RK, this post wasn't an argument to your points, but just trying to clarify some things out there that could be really considered rumors, as you call them.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... and he'll sleep better at night, then I have no problem telling customers that he won't build any more engines with alloy blocks until further notice. He'll suffer a loss of business, but then he's backed up anyway.

Well, alright. I just hate to see a dollar slip through his hands. That's just my nature.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by blykins

Here's the thing.....Dart and Ford Racing make a lot of aluminum Windsor blocks. High quantity. I have a little more faith in them just because of the number of blocks that are sold and the fact that a very large company/foundry is casting them.

With that being said, a Dart aluminum block sells for about $6000. A For Racing block sells for $4200. Considering that you have to pay that much for one and you will actually make less horsepower with an aluminum block, if you're not shooting for a specific curb weight or racing in a class, my advice would be to pass....

Thanks for that info, Brent! It makes sense to go iron if that makes more HP, I wasn't aware that was the case.

That makes my future plans a bit less demanding. I can get significant lightening up front with alloy heads, water pump, etc. My car is not a racer at all, more accurately a daily driver. With the 1989 block in my replica being one of the more desirable of the 5.0s (roller lifters, hypereutectic pistons) I can see much more clearly the build parameters now.

Cheers!

Doug

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Personally, knowing all that I know, I wouldn't consider an aluminum block a bragging right, but I could see where it could be taken that way. Same way as bragging about having a "6-speed".

By the way, RK, this post wasn't an argument to your points, but just trying to clarify some things out there that could be really considered rumors, as you call them.

No worries.

While you, as an engine builder, don't think running an aluminum block is a bragging right, the consumer still does. And when you go to sell your Cobra, the buyer's perception is that the alloy block is better. Why? It costs more and it removes about 100 lbs from the front end. Until buyer's perceptions change, it will continue to be an issue when you go to sell your Cobra.

Are the OEM foundries different from the foundries that cast the alloy FE blocks? There can't be that many foundries left in our country that can make these things anymore. The FE block has been around for 50 years, not much has changed, so it's not like these foundries are inventing a new iPhone or the newest flu vaccine.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Well, alright. I just hate to see a dollar slip through his hands. That's just my nature.

A lot of folks can wait a year for their ERA or KMP to be built. I have a sense that when it's time to build an engine, buyers don't want to wait a year or whatever for their engine to be built. So, it's probable that Brent would lose those customers anyway since he's backed up now anyway and there's an alloy block shortage.

Brent, BTW, not too long ago, BBM had no blocks available. I remember a CC member inquiring here in a thread. Are they available for immediate purchase now?

[blykins]

I texted Doug from BBM last week and asked when the blocks would be arriving....he said next week. So.....he should have blocks as we speak from what I gather.

I don't know if I have an exact answer to the OEM foundry question. My guess is that some of the big names such as Ford, GM, etc., have their own foundry. I know Pond was casting his stuff at a foundry in Ohio and last year left them because of quality issues. It seems as though every time a new foundry is sought after, it takes months and months and months. I've seen this time and time again from suppliers such as Pond, to the guys who are trying to get a new product up and going.

I know BBM's blocks are cast by the Hyundai foundry in South Korea. However, I lean heavily on the thought that an outsider such as BBM, who's asking for 200 pieces takes a huge back seat to someone who's asking for 250000 pieces. That's where we get back to the SBF, SBC, BBC, etc., aftermarket blocks. Those are sold by fairly high quantities. FE blocks just don't have that big of a demand.

[cycleguy55]

I spent 22+ years working for IBM and one of its wholly-owned subsidiaries, and I can tell you IBM (and the subsidiary I worked for) did a risk assessment on every substantial piece of work it bid on. Each of those risk assessments produced a risk rating, with appropriate risk 'premiums' and contingencies applied to those bids or proposals. Having said that, there were situations where the risk assessment produced an extreme or unacceptable risk rating. Under those situations IBM would choose not to bid.

While Brent is dealing with a completely different set of circumstances, products, etc., he's performing his own risk assessment on the business he chooses to accept. If his experience (one of the factors in IBM's risk assessment) tells him the use of aluminum blocks (analogous to IBM's use of 3rd party products) produces an unacceptable risk rating, then he can well choose to decline the work. I completely understand - especially after reading his responses and rationale in this thread.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

I texted Doug from BBM last week and asked when the blocks would be arriving....he said next week. So.....he should have blocks as we speak from what I gather.

WiltWallace put his name on a list for a BBM block back in June. This is the thread I was trying to recall:

FE builder / Pro in NC?

They were out of blocks in June and they're out of blocks in November, did they ship anyone blocks in the between June and November? I'm not sure how reliable they'll be getting customers their blocks, at least quickly. That would frustrate me A LOT, if I were waiting.

I haven't heard anyone moaning about the alloy Shelby or Pond blocks here, are they having problems that we're not aware of?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

They were out of blocks in June and they're out of blocks in November, did they ship anyone blocks in the between June and November? I'm not sure how reliable they'll be...

What? A supplier making delivery promises that they can't fill? No, that never happens. I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya....

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by blykins

A lot of your OEM combinations are all-aluminum. However, they have OEM quantity, OEM manufacturing, and OEM foundries behind them. Big difference.

Personally, knowing all that I know, I wouldn't consider an aluminum block a bragging right, but I could see where it could be taken that way. Same way as bragging about having a "6-speed".

Brent,

The "OEM" guys are using pressure cast aluminum in permanent molds with foam void cores, a big difference from gravity cast, sand pattern castings. The ability to control core shift, etc. is much greater with high dollar production means.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

What? A supplier making delivery promises that they can't fill? No, that never happens. I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya....

Exactly my point.

I just searched the FE Forum just a minute ago and Brent posted that EVERYONE is out of blocks, BBM, Pond, Shelby, etc.

Does anyone have an FE block available? I know mine just went up in value.

[RET_COP]

I'm with you Brent also. My thoughts are, aluminum moves a lot. A block being such a big chunk of bored holes to the thousands of an inch just never made sense to me from a longevity reliability standpoint at big horsepower numbers. Maybe a seasoned block has better results. I'll let you weigh in on that thought.

[RockBit]

Not knowing anything about the agreement they have in place, BBM may be in a perilous position have their parts cast by Hyundai. Years ago I was with a company that needed castings. We found an excellent foundry that was owned by Kumatsu and had spare capacity. The parts they supplied us were great, and pricing was good. After about 5 years, they told us that Kumatsu's demand had increased and they no longer had the capacity to supply parts to us. We scrambled to find another supplier, but never found one with the quality we had been getting.

[jhv48]

Brent, it's your business.

Do what you want!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jhv48

Brent, it's your business.

Do what you want!

No, you can only do what you want after you've made a pot full of money. Until then, you do what you have to. Even RodKnock will agree with that.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, you can only do what you want after you've made a pot full of money. Until then, you do what you have to. Even RodKnock will agree with that.

Not everyone needs to make a pot full of money. For someone who's a fan of Wabi-sabi, I'm very surprised with this remark.

But for some, the more money we have, the more discriminating we can be.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

But for some, the more money we have, the more discriminating we can be.

You shouldn't discriminate; you should be "inclusive."

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You shouldn't discriminate; you should be "inclusive."

Ya, I'll be thinking about that the next time I'm deciding between an Old Fashioned or Apple Fritter at the local Donut Shop. Just get both.