What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference. The buyers and their "seed money" are engine builders like Brent, Barry, Craft, Tom Lucas, etc. or Robert Pond. As Barry said earlier, he has paid for 5 blocks and doesn't have them yet. So, we're not talking about a bunch of finicky consumers of magnesium wheels. Most of us here building Cobras buy engines from engine builders. I didn't buy an aluminum block and then ship it off to an engine builder. I bought my engine block from the engine builder.

[fordracing65]

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference...

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

They meant these:

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

They meant these:

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

Well that is a nice looking garden. Yessirreee, could of come right off of HuffPo.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

Then we have different interpretations. I understand it to mean he has paid for 5 blocks in full in advance. But either way, he has put cash up front, not words.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

But either way, he has put cash up front, not words.

Well, yes, point taken. If it's green, and has presidents on it, then that certainly speaks louder than CC posts.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

I have a lot of respect for your opinions RodKnock, but on this one you are just missing the mark. The seed monies for the business were spent way in advance of the block order placed by the engine builder. There is a conservative $250K in engineering and tooling to make a block from dead scratch.

Once you get done with the sunk investment up front then you have to buy the minimum economic order quantity for the foundry not necessarily you! That number is between 50 and 100 blocks. Finish up the machine work, the freight, import duties (remember you can't get the quality casting in the US anymore) and you are somewhere north of minimally another $350/400K.

So, now you are in the tank for a half million+ for the first 50 to 100 blocks before you get any monies coming in for product.

Patrick is spot on and anyone with a spare half million+ laying around does not seem to be popping up to take advantage of the excellent business opportunity you seem to see, RodKnock.

This block business is fools gold — especially for FE's. We are basically the only guys that want them and we don't like to pay the price for them — not to mention the flake out factor is high.

This kind of a 'hobby' business only looks promising to uninformed people who are on the outside looking in that do not or can not think this business 'opportunity' and the attendant risks through start to finish.


Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I have a lot of respect for your opinions RodKnock, but on this one you are just missing the mark. The seed monies for the business were spent way in advance of the block order placed by the engine builder. There is a conservative $250K in engineering and tooling to make a block from dead scratch.

Once you get done with the sunk investment up front then you have to buy the minimum economic order quantity for the foundry not necessarily you! That number is between 50 and 100 blocks. Finish up the machine work, the freight, import duties (remember you can't get the quality casting in the US anymore) and you are somewhere north of minimally another $350/400K.

So, now you are in the tank for a half million+ for the first 50 to 100 blocks before you get any monies coming in for product.

Patrick is spot on and anyone with a spare half million+ laying around does not seem to be popping up to take advantage of the excellent business opportunity you seem to see, RodKnock.

This block business is fools gold — especially for FE's. We are basically the only guys that want them and we don't like to pay the price for them — not to mention the flake out factor is high.

This kind of a 'hobby' business only looks promising to uninformed people who are on the outside looking in that do not or can not think this business 'opportunity' and the attendant risks through start to finish.


Ed

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

And you're not.

I still think Barry has fully paid for 5 blocks, because he's Barry, one of the top engine builders here in these United States of America. He's been buying blocks for what, 10, 20, 30 years. How about Pond? Or Craft? I'm sure these guys have given cash to the block foundries/manufacturers, not just some flake like me.

[olddog]

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.


Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

In schools today, educators call it "oppositional defiant disorder" (ODD) and give the kids meds. Patrick already take too many meds. He must, because he thinks his Cobra looks good in Desert Storm Camo beige and "burps up" ancient Buddhist philosophies.

[Large Arbor]

If Shelby has alloy blocks available, what's the big deal/ If you want one drop the $6-7k and send it to a reputable builder and don't worry about it. I can say that my block, #597 has performed well and I would drop the $ I did on the ERA with aluminum block again. Great value, great performance, and great resale.

Phil