stroking a 427 so

[Jeff Frigo]

I thought most of these came from Can Am cars. Thanks.

[RACER X #99]

I guess I just don't understand street racers???

Cranky

[Turk]

We can explain it to you if you ever take that silly helmet of!
Tired of screaming in your ear over all the buzzing noise those roundy round cars in the back ground.

TURK

[RACER X #99]

I eagerly antisipate your words of wisdom.

RD

[Jeb]

Originally posted by Jeff Frigo
Jeb:

Where in the hell did you find this $hit? I'm sure it came out of some type of drag car that competed in a specific displacement class. Why would anybody want this for the street.

And what is your problem? Yes, it's from a drag racer who realized that cubic inches aren't always the important factor in a race. Like you use a foil for torso work, and an épée if the whole body is the target. It's the complete package and how it all fits together. Raki is not a substitute for rosé and massive cubic inches could be the equivalent of a broadsword in a fencing match that would be better served with the swift-revving capability of a lighter blade.

In a lightweight vehicle like a Cobra, being able to spin the motor to higher RPM's and having it be not-unhappy there is probably more important than going sideways at will on public highways. And the long rods are easier on the thin sidewalls of a true 427's bore. You know about bores? This destroked 427 would rev faster, and rev higher, and rev more safely than stock 427's. And, it doesn't have the cross-drilling that messes up so many 427 cranks at speed. It would be the basis for a very mean sounding FE. With Tunnel Port heads or even SOHC heads, it would be a screamer.

The only benefit I've read in this thread of more cubic inches is to be able to stand on the throttle at 60 mph and basically lose control of the vehicle (and draw attention to one's self). If that is the goal, then cubic inches (and/or a roots blower sticking a couple of feet out of the hood) should accomplish your objective.

If the idea is a better handling, better performing vehicle, in a road course situation, then you won't get a better engine for that purpose than the FE which, for its cubic inches, is light and powerful. It can be made better: though the use of lighter weight components, more up-to-date parts, and restructuring for a very particular usage (like destroking it for high-percentage midr/upper RPM ranges)

My opinions only. I'd certainly like to hear from anyone who has actually run such an engine, which would probably be the small-block folk who have recognized the utility of buzzy vs brawny.

[Turk]

Racer X,
It is too early in the morning on the left coast. Too early to think, too early to fight.

Now, if you truly want to hear the "wit and wisdom" of TURK...do a search and read what is already written.
If your search shows nothing under wit, or wisdom....well what can I say. I told you so! I have been searching for that pair myself.
Now go out and winterize the lawmower, and chage the oil in that snowmobile.Shop for a set of studded tires, something meaningful.

TURK
West Coast Advice desk!

[ENTDOC]

Turk,other than the meatballs ,did you follow the ERA sites recs on stripe width ,placement,ect? chuck

[Turk]

To the last umpteenth inch.
Absolutely!

TURK

[A Snake]

There was a post on this thread about "destroking" a 427 using a remachined steel 361 truck crank. I'll be darned if I can find it now.

I have this to say; ANYTHING that makes 400+ real horse power, that's put in a 2300# car with a 90" wheelbase, is quite capable of scaring the H.E. double hocky sticks out of the driver....presuming the driver has any sense.

Light the tires at 60 or 100mph? Sure I did it once. Stupidest thing I ever did. With me it only took once.

Braggin' rights come from trophys and time slips, not bench racin' over cubes.

BTW the destroked 427 was done and put in a dirt track car by the guy I got my 427 SO from. It ate smallblocks for breakfast, regularly turned 8000 rpm, didn't break parts or window the block and it was the first Ford to win on that particular circuit.....and kept on winning. This was early '80's

Now, if someone wants to do it again, I can tell you this; if the smallblocks were making 400+ real HP, this engine had to be well over 500. He passed any where he wanted to .....including corners.

Hmmmmmm How 'bout aluminum 427 SO block and heads and only 400 CID, buzzing 8 grand and making over 500hp. Mix well and place in well sorted chassis. Run 'til thoroughly warmed up and watch the strokers, smallblocks and regular SO's disappear in the mirror!

[Jeff Frigo]

Jeb:

The serial number starts with CSX. Find it yet?

[Jeb]

I know what and where it is.

I know what the best engine for a given situation is.

I know someone who is overcompensating when I read/see their posts.

Do you own a replica for the attention it gets you in person? Do you pick fights for the attention it gets you in print? Grow up.

[Anthony]

ENTDOC (Chuck) You have to understand the history of the engines, and why they were developed.

The bore and stroke of 427's and 428's is really not that much different (4.23 X 3.78 vs. 4.13 X 3.98). The reason why ford came out with the 427 was for NASCAR racing, as 7 liters was the limit, which is why Chevy had the 427, chyrsler the 426, Pontiac the 421. The Ford 427 grew out of the 406 (4.13 X 3.78). I guess Ford figured to get the maximum advantage for nascar racing, they had to increase the displacement of the 406 near to the limit of 427, and rather by stroking it, they enlarged the bore to 4.23", probably knowing that the largest bore and smallest stroke at a displacement of 427 " was the best option for sustained high (7000+) rpm racing. Unfortunately, there wasn't much more room to increase the bore, because of the fixed bore spacing designed into the engine casting, so they had to have a special (expensive) casting line to guarantee the bores were aligned more closely than on standard production FE blocks such as the 406, 390, 428. Early 427 racing cranks were cast nodular iron, and later ones were forged. The 428 block was more of a standard production block. I guess with Ford knowing they could not mass produce 427's for standard production cars, they instead decided to increase the stroke of the 406 to 3.98" to come up with the 428, of which all had cast nodular cranks. All the other manufacturers were producing passenger car engines in the 7 liter range, Mopar the 426 wedge, Pontiac the 421 and 428, chevy the 427, oldsmobile the 425, buick the 425 and 430. Other than the 406, ford didn't have a production 7 liter motor, and they weren't going to put expensive 427's in grocery getters. It was the easiest way to increase the displacement of the 406.

Actually, all of the above engines are slightly oversquare, with the ford 427, mopar 426, chevy 427 all around a 4.25" bore. If you really want to see a torque motor, look at the current Ford truck gas motors, all undersquare design, with the bore less than the stroke, designed purposely to deliever max torque at low rpms for hauling heavy loads.

The 428 was more of a torque motor not because of the bore/stroke, but because of the tamer hydraulic cams, lower compression, moderate sized heads. Actually, if you compared the factory rated max torque output of a 427 vs. a 428, you will find that the 427 as delivered in the cobra was rated at 480, and the 428 as delivered in the cobra was rated at 475, both at 3700 rpm, and the 428 police interceptor was rated at 460 @ 3200 rpms. The 428, as delivered in most cars developed max torque at lower rpms, thus better suited for passenger cars. You can take a 428, and with high compression, high rpm cam, and high flow heads make a lot of horsepower, close to a 427.

A 428 CJ crank is good to 7000 rpms, and 750 hp, as I have been told. Ford cast cranks are better than chevy cast cranks. AS far as destroking for an advantage, I would guess that in most racing, it would be beneficial to be at the limit in displacement, with the best bore/stroke ratio. I have never heard of any winston cup cars running a destroked 351, to 320 " or so. I think they all run 358". I know Smokey talked about running a destroked 427 chevy to 410", to get an extra 200 rpms, but I would think if it was that great, everybody else would be doing it as well.

If you have to buy a crank anyway, I would buy the 428 crank instead of the 427 crank, as it is cheaper, will increase the displacement and torque output, and it is still very durable. In fact, some drag racers primarily use cast 427 (390) cranks, not forged 427's, as some think they are more forgiving and they don't spin as many bearings. If you are going to turn down the rod journal, to offset grind the crank, then you may want a forged crank for the increased strength at the location of the rod journal.

I actually know Eric Oldham, the guy who is selling the 361 truck crank, 427 destroked set up. He is a serious drag racer, and runs a T-Bolt clone. He is fast. I actually bought a tunnel port fuel injection system off of him, maybe someday for a GT40 MkIIB

[Jeff Frigo]

Jeb:

I just can't stand a liar. Is there any reason you will not post the serial number of your car? I am not the first person to ask you this question. Why would you have a $150,000 car buried under boxes? I will be the first one to apologies if you really have an original.

If you think a destroked engine is better for the street than a stock stroke, or stroked engine, then your head is up your ass. Why do so many people stroke small blocks? More torque and hp. Again, call any reputable street engine builder if you don't believe me.

Explain what overcompensating a post means? Compensation means to make satisfactory payment or reparation to; recompense or reimburse. Your statement makes no sense.

I own a replica because I enjoy driving it. There is nothing else with this type of power to weight ratio.

I have over 700 posts of which very few are of this nature. I try to help people whenever possible.

Anthony:

Well said.

[A Snake]

Just a little adder for you Anthony, the drag racers use the 390 cast crank because its a bunch lighter. Less rotating mass, quicker rpms. Spun bearings are oiling and clearance problems, not to be blamed on what the crank is made out of.

Just for the heck of it, how many of you guys have heard which bearing always goes first in a 427?

406 is the same bore as the 428, but similarity ends there. The 406 was a solid lifter engine only and there was no oiling for hydraulic cams. Different motor mount bolt pattern too.

Anybody wants to go nuts trying to figure ford out, get a list of all of the different heads there are for FE's. Look at the ports and valve sizes. You'll be amazed. They'll all retro fit except MR, TP and SOHC. LR427 is the same basic head used on the 406.

[Excaliber]

If Smoky said it was good to de-stroke, then it was good. Smoky Yunick, what a legend, what a man, God rest his soul.

Chevy DE-STROKED the 327 to come up with a 302 for road racing their Camaro! Hmmm,,,,they must have figured it out! Small block turning high rpms equals "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday"!

Now for the street? Oh yeah, bring out the stroked 427! Heck I WANT to burn rubber at 60 mph too! Oh wait, I have a race this weekend,,,,I better stick with my small block for now, ha ha.

Last weekend the SCCA Solo II course was SO tight (How tight was it?). It was SO tight there was only ONE short spot where I could actually go 100% throttle! Like I need more torque on a course like that? I would LOVE to "play" with a big block, I just cannot believe it would be faster on a short tight course like I run here in Hawaii (as in SCCA I or Solo II).

Ernie

[Anthony]

Ernie,

Smokey de-stroked the chevy 427 only for one race; He didn't win.

Chevy de-stroked the 327 to 302 only because they had to, to meet the trans-am max displacement of 5 liters, which is somewhere around 304 ". Pontiac experimented with a 303" engine, 4.12" bore with 2.8" stroke, but it never worked out. They ended up using the chevy 302 in the firebirds, with the smaller bore and longer stroke.

If you take a 289 and stroke it, you get a ford 302. If you take a ford 302 and stroke it, you get a 351. So, a 351 is nothing more than a stroked 289, with a higher deck height. The block has the same bore and bore spacing. I guess all those NASCAR wins with ford engines are with stroked 289's.


A Snake,
I was brousing through a ford web site, and they were talking about cast cranks being softer, or holding a better film of oil than a steel crank, something about the surface. Just what some serious drag racers were seeing at the drag strip. People spinning bearings always seemed to be running steel cranks.

Regarding the 406, yeah, they were all race engines, solid lifters, but I think all the blocks had the oil galleries cast in them, so they could have been drilled to run a hydraulic cam, like the 390's and 428's. The 427's from my understanding had a different casting process, and then were machined on a separate line than the other FE engines

[mr bruce]

A few years back, to combat NASCAR's restrictor plate rules, Jack Rouch destroked a 358 down to around 330"(?) Spun the bugger close to 10k. Destroking is only good if you're playing by some sort of rules.Nobody here is racing these things under any sort of rules, so what's the point of destroking them?

[A Snake]

mr bruce, you be right. There is absolutely no point in it....unless, just for the heck of it, you want to make more HP per cubic inch than you can any other way, with a normally aspirated engine.

I may get slapped for this, but I have yet to hear of a normally aspirated, stroked, bigblock making 2.2hp per cube on gasoline.....even racing gas.

It's in the heads. They will only flow so much air. That's why the Boss 302 made more Hp/cube than a Boss 351 with essentially the same heads.

There's also more to do with the physics of an air/fuel mixture in motion that I'm not smart enough to remember the formula for, as well as the formula for square inches of piston top to actual stroke in figuring air flow and cam dynamics.

In short it ain't a bad thing any more than stroking an engine for use in one of these Cobras.

Want quick revs and high HP too, destroke it. Want enough torque to pull a freight train, stroke it. Just wanna have fun, leave it alone.