New 427 vs old 427

[SCOBRAC]

Oh, is there an aluminum Block I can buy TODAY? (as my friend Turk would say)

Regards,

[SCOBRAC]

Hey.. I have a CD player.. But it's ok.. I offset the weight bias by taking out the windshield wiper motor.. The amp weight is offset by the removal of the heater.. (you have to know me to know why this is soooo funny)

Regards,

[ERA 626]

Evan,
I never once said

"REAL full race NASCAR SO block with high nickel content, forged crank with extra wide journals and NASCAR rods"

READ the question !

My builder told me ( Gessford ) The block is superior in several ways; Oiling system, strength, weight, cooling, 90's Technology with 60's nostalgia

Sorry sell that stuff else ware

[Jamo]

Evan

On this one--you're wrong. Whose hearsay you relying on?

The weight difference is much greater than 50 lbs and you know it (or you should--compare even the most conservative published accounts). It's certainly going to depend on the way the respective engines are outfitted, but we're talking at least 125 to 200lbs, and more importantly--right where the weight needs to be transferred from.

Your two friends cars run hotter--but you don't know why--how are they outfitted versus yours? Your example of the three of you goes against the experiences of every major manufacturer and racing venue.

An engine lives on oil--the Shelby distributes it better--period.

Strength--find me one competitive AA/FD with 5,000hp and up worried about aluminum blowing apart vs. an iron block.

NOS iron blocks are going for within $1000 or less versus a Shelby block, and that can readily be eaten up with cleaning up the casting, etc. There's a bigger price difference between a standard 427 crank and a new billet one--at this level, price differences in those amounts are relatively irrelevant. You're right--it's gonna be a $20K to $30K motor no matter what.

Finally--using every argument you've ever posted about your car versus other makes made today--my block has a CSX number, which, though not original (course, that means an original Galaxy, Torino, Mustang, etc. motor, doesn't it--we're not exactly talking matching numbers here, are we?)--makes it a REAL Shelby Cobra motor!

There are some good reasons to use a 60's iron FE--you've got one already or you're after originality, and both are valid and good reasons. The former is going to become more rare as time goes on, making the latter more difficult to achieve--to the point of wondering whether one wants to chance driving the museum piece at levels where happiness is achieved.

[Evan H.]

Nah. Why read the question. Its more fun this way.

I very well may have gone for the new block had I not bumped into my block which was a real full race NASCAR 427SO short block with higher nickel content, with forged crank, wider race spec journals, and NASCAR rods which as far as condition was a 81/2 to 9 on a scale of 10 according to Tony Feil.

My block and a NOS block or a SO block in execellent shape would be my only choice above the new 427 aluminum block.

Also. Can someone please point to where I said yesterdays engine is better than todays. I must have missed it. I wish some would read my post.

For what most guys here use there cars for either block will do. Not many guys running 1000hp.

While I don't know how much hp an original SO can handle the fact is that iron blocks, from what I understand are more durable for race conditions where high rpms are a constant race after race. Isn't this true??

As I understand from Tony Feil, my engine builder and one of the most respected race engine builders there are, the SO was built to endure hours of sustained high rpm use. Thats good enough for me. If my motor was built to endure that beating it can surely handle taking me and my twins for ice cream.

Yesterdays engine has its advantages, if not in technology, in the fact it is "original" and carries a aura of being the REAL deal and the legend in the flesh that a new technology motor can not deliver.

Both will reliably deliver 450-500 hp. One is the REAL original the other is the new 427.

While the original blocks are old design the rebuilt motors of today are better than when they first came out of the crate. Todays motors (at least mine) has been balanced & blue printed, all inner components are new and better materials such as valve train, Harlan Sharp roller rockers, billet end stands, Comp Cam etc.etc...

[Evan H.]

Jamo: There is no way the weight difference is 200lbs. You're right what I heard was hearsay. But aren't you relying on hearsay also. Where did you get your hearsay from?

The weight distribution on an original 427 Cobra as I remember is damn near 50/50. Thats with an iron block. If you change the origninal specs aren't you changing the weight distrubution (not that any car you drive will have a 50/50 weight distribution )

One friend, Candido Duran has his 427 stroked to 454. The other has a staight 427 with aluminum block and heads. The former runs slightly hotter than mine the latter runs substantially hotter. Beats the $hit out of me why. Some things you just can't explain. My engine runs consistantly 170 to 180 regardless of temp. In traffic in August it will go to 185 to 190. Why? Maybe its because I'm special

5000hp? Blowing apart? How many races do those blocks run??? One season if that??

The 427 SO was designed for endurance with high rpms. Iron has an advantage over aluminum when it comes to endurance and wear. Doesn't it????

Maybe the new block oils better. Ok. The original oils fine.

The new 427 aluminum is an awesome peice. The fact it has a CSX number is neat too. Adds value. IMHO.

The original 427 Cobras had original FE 427s. The original FE's that were used then didn't have CSX numbers. Did they? Can we say NO? The CSX # was on the chasis. Just like today. No diference.

While the good ole' FE block may be a museum peice, if you blow the block in an orig or new aluminum block your screwed. Same difference. No difference.

There are some valid reasons to go with a new aluminum block. You can't find a original 427FE in good conditon at a reasonable price or you already bought the aluminum block.

Either block will serve well.

Jeff: YES. I do have a CD and Amp. Both are hidden to preserve the aesthetics of course.



BTW. I'm never wrong.

BTW again. I just went back and read the original question of this thread. Even an over priced, rusty, 40 year old block wins the voter preference by a landslide. Can you imagine if the original FE was in mint condition, NOS or a mint full race NASCAR 427SO short block? It wouldn't even be a contest. Jamo, you weren't one of the misguided 6.7% were you????

[RICK LAKE]

WHO DID NOT read the 200 LBS differance between IRON FE MOTOR and alum sHELBY MOTOR. THE wieght would be 150 lbs on a 427 motor with alum intake period verses the Shelby motor.
Evan H Tony Feils is a good GM machinist. I think he was into CHEVYS back in his hay day. I know he did a couple of Fords too. That was not his strong point. The best machinist on the East Coast is CHARLEY WESTON in Piscataway period. He as computor CNC machines that can cut .00001 He never advertises. He does more PRO STOCK motors than anything else now. Evan if you break or window an Alumium motor it can be welding and be used again. An iron motor can be welded but most crack again after 10-20 heat cycles. 50/50 wieght depended on wieght of driver and gallons of gas in the tank. 42 gallon tank holds 330 lbs of fuel. Next time we meet you will have to show me these new 81/2-9 out of 10 rods. How did you lose a 11/2 point? I know you are from jersey, no doubt about it The old SOHC FE motor was good for 1500 hp before the heads would lift and the blocks would crack. Shelby motor is good for 2200 hp and is being tested on the salt flat by Mike Lefevers. It's twin turbo intercooled. Alumium motors run 1 point higher because of poor heat control. Iron heads will always make better power. My motor is stamped CSX 52 on the bottom of the oil pan rail Sounds like a shelby part to me, just like frames and bodys, but these can be cut off and put on other cars with no questions. I think Shelby daytona fits this bill. He sold his first due to money problems. You read about the big block cobras having 428 motors not 427's. I guess that means that all 428 are not real cobras either. ONe more point Have you seen the inside of a shebly block, the webbing is twice as strong, the head studs pull from the bottom of the block not the cylinders, I have double steel main caps not iron ones oiling bores are bigger. Why don't you go look on the shelby web for some pictures and compare to your motor if you where ever inside it. I looked for a good 427 motor, I found everything from thin cylinders, cracked blocks,welded blocks,sleeves in blocks, and the list went on. This is why Shebly was smart enought to start building motors again. I got a great idea, Evan next car you buy that needs a motor, buy a DOVE or Genisis motor. They are making both iron and alumium motors and give it to Tony and watch him laugh at you. Rick Lake

[Jamo]

Evan

While you may never "be wrong", there is an immense amount of evidence that you are, on occasions far too numerous to list here but sufficiently published to make it self-evident, full of sh!t.

SAI puts the bare aluminum block at 125lbs. ERA's site compares the complete 427 iron engine (alum. man.) at 610lbs vs. 460lbs for the aluminum engine.

Extended durability--ok, the heck with drag racing. You're talking to an Audi owner. Three successive LeMans wins with multiple placings by R8s running twin turbo aluminum V8s--not even a burp from the motors.

Don't try the weight distribution bluff with the owner of a Butler--with a small block set back 12 inches from "stock", I enjoy 52/48! Just don't.

Come on--you don't even get to a trial on the merits on this one. An SJ motion and you're done.

BTW, the polling numbers here are as valid as:

a) A Florida election count, or

b) The drag race between you and Turk (formerly in charge of counting ballots in Florida).

[terry lee]

I think Evan needs to buy an ORIGINAL Cobra to go with his original SO without the original parts.
TL

[ERA535]

Hey Evan!

Stop trying to BS everyone!

Pat

[ADR]

If I'm not mistaken, the Shelby web site conservatively rates the pot metal block at 1500 hp.
Dale

PS Rick Lake...... .00001 is ten millionths of an inch. Might want to talk to Charley about that one.

[RICK LAKE]

ADR Sorry Dale .0001 I hit the zero one to many times. I got a D in typing in school. 30 years ago and don't play the piano since 10. I will work on it I can't believe I live in the same state as Evan and he has friends. I wonder how much he pays for their services? Come on Evan lets hear some more crap about things Rick Lake

[Evan H.]

You guys are funny!

The aluminum block Shelby is a great block. Technologically better than the old "antique" iron block. Ok. Oils better too. Ok. Maybe it can handle more horsepower. Ok. So? What does this mean in REAL life application???

The weight difference is not 200lbs. It seems like the weight difference has now come down to 150lbs. Tried to add that extra 50lbs before did'nt we???

How many of you run even 1000hp? How many of you drive hard enough and long enough even to blow up a well built original SO? Well. Who?

The same motor that powered the original 427 Cobra, the center peice of this entire hobby is the 427SO. The same motor that provided record setting performance back in 1965 and allowed the Cobra to run from 0 to100 to 0 in 13.8 seconds. The same engine that powered the 427 Cobra to 5 SCCA A production titles. As I recall the original 427SO also powered the GT40's to multiple LeMans wins and one 1,2,3 sweep. Any motor than can do all that is a performance legend and is worthy of being placed back where it belongs...back in a Cobra.

Fact remains that an original SO, if the block in in good conditon and passes the pressure test and sonic testing, and if rebuilt properly can offer durability and performance beyond the envelope of most owners here. There are good blocks still to be found. Granted its more difficult today as the supply is drying up. Turk found an NOS block didn't he?

I've seen the aluminum Shelby blocks. They are very nicely done and in my opinion worth the money. If I didn't find my block or something comparable to it that probably would have been my choice.

Jamo: Really. Come on. How can you even use the Audi R8's as an example of aluminum durability. Those motors in technology and build are in a different universe than any of these motors not to mention backed by millions in support and technical know how. Aren't the motors in all such cars at such a high level routinely rebuilt??? I think so. Its no more impressive than repeated GT40 victories at LeMans powered by the ole' warrior. Perhaps less so when you bring into focus the technological advances of todays race cars.

Maybe the new aluminum block is a better mouse trap but the thing the aluminum block can't offer that the old antique does..originality of equipment and the mystic of seeing the legend in the flesh.

Mr. Lake: You are welcome to come on down and look at the photos of my block during the build stage, photos of the crank with measuring guage showing the width of the jounrnals and the rods. Luckily your practically next door. BTW who built your engine? Charley Weston? Hmmm.

Looks like I'm arguing with the 7.0% that voted for the aluminum block and not the 93% that picked that old rusted overpriced SO block. Thus while we are arguing about whether an aluminum Shelby block is better than an original FE 427SO block, and maybe it is, it seems clear the preferred block of choice is the old war horse. The REAL deal.

[Jamo]

Evan

I appreciate the effort it took for you to admit you're wrong, but you are a bigger man for it. Just don't be so hard on yourself.

I never said 200lbs; I said between 125lbs and 200lbs depending upon how it is outfitted. I am quite comfortable with the 150lb figure cited by ERA. That's 150lbs I'm moving from the front to just in front of the rear wheels since I weigh at least 150lbs more than the average person--and all within the same plane given the size of my ass. The ultimate redistribution of weight!!!

As much as I love Audi R&D, I think Arias (now Shelby) has been around long enough to know what the hell they're doing. I think they've built aluminum motors longer than Ford built the SO. BTW--I dry-sleeved a Vega GT block back in 73 and ended up with a very nice (and light) 194hp (dyno) motor that ran perfectly for 140,000 college-days miles (including dozens of autocrosses). Once Porsche (or rather, Mercedes) figured out how to apply Teflon, even the 928 non-sleeved aluminum blocks performed faultlessly (though the rest of the cars fell apart around them).

Nothing at all wrong with a 60's SO block. It is amazing that 30+ years later, it is still a great motor that is almost as good as a modern aluminum Shelby.

Finally--having Turk in control of certain buttons for this site does give your "arguments" a little nitrus boost on the numbers.

[RACER X #99]

Evan,
Check out the results of the 2001 NE replica challenge.
Notice any familiar names and lap tmes?

Durner, Don ERA Cobra BB S/P
83 1:19.241 1:18.913 . . . . . .
Formanek, Paul ERA Cobra BB S/P
72 1:18.830
1:19.19 1:19.36 2
. . . .
Reilly, David ERA Cobra BB S/P
165 1:26.531 1:26.625 1:27.929 . . . . .
MacGown, George ERA Cobra BB S/P
483 DNP
. . . . . . .
.
Lake, Richard ERA Cobra BBP
22 1:42.908 1:41.250
1:48.614 1
49.097 Race . .
Shenck, Jim FFR Cobra BBP
51 DNP
. . . 40.344 Race 1
.
.
Rodamista, Joe ERA Cobra SB Pro
142 1:18.096 1:17.771 1:17.741
1
. . . .
.


Cranky


After a second look I noticed the smallest motor had the fastest time and the biggest motor the slowest lap time.
Oh well, I guess he can always go bigger yet.

Some of these bigger is better guys sure are funny.

[John McMahon]

It's true......

Evan is never wrong....of course, he's never right either!

He lives in a vacuum surrounded by 'those in the know' about all things 'Cobra'.

I have a feeling he won't be happy until all other memebrs of CC agree with him.

Evan...yer gonna be waiting a long time.

BTW - The gap in time between Evan's responses are based on how quickly he can get Tony Feil on the cell phone!

WOO HOO!!!!!

[Jeff Frigo]

Evan

0-100-0 in 13.8 sec.? Never any official numbers to back that up. Some guy with a stop watch in his hand while driving the car at the same time. He let out the clutch, started the stop watch, waited till the spedo. said 100 (we all know how accurate S/W and Smiths are) when he decided to put on the brakes, then finally clicked the watch again. I know, if CS said so, that’s proof enough for you.

432 vote in one pole? Please, there has never been a poll with that many responses. Its quite obvious that somebody jacked with it. It jumped 426 votes in less than a half an hour. BTW, it was five against one before the fix went in. Five for the aluminum block, one for the cast iron. As usual, you are in the very small minority. Just keep telling yourself “I’m ok, everybody else is fu#ked” Just wait till I tell CS you have a CD player in your replica. He will disown you in a minute.

[RICK LAKE]

Brent Mills What is the correct vote tally on this poll ? Could you PLEASE srtaighten it out. 430 for iron when only a 128 looked at the forum. Could we get the correct numbers. 1200 have looked at it and nobody voted COME ON. your kidding. Rick Lake

[computerworks]

...rolled in new voting machine.
Go vote now...
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...637#post186637

[RICK LAKE]

Evan H Wait A minute.
Turk I donot mean to insult you but what did you pay for your block?? Was it still in the crate, or low milage used with the correct numbers? Condition of motor is part of this forum.
Evan H I don't need to come down to see your motor installed or put together. No comment about Weston. Smart thinking. Shebly had 3-5 alum motors built back in 65, The turd got one, it was only a 390, but all alumium not a 427. Overheating was the problem, They needed a bigger radiator and louvers in the hood to fix the problem. On a personal note Seals lead the way. Rangers follow Master chief Patches Jimmy Watson Seals. I do not need any e-mail from the rangers. He is entitle to his statement I am entitled to mine.
RacerX#99 Another out of right flied statement. DO YOU KNOW WHAT BBSP IS? WHAT SBPRO IS? WHAT BB PRO IS? We had this talk a year ago and you are still out in Right Field. BBSP means big block street prepared. SBSP means Small block street prepared. BB PRO means Big Block Pro. I had a brand new car with no miles on it and was asked if I would run in the Pro class to have someone in it. I had 15" BFG tires on it and a clutch problem from a centerforce clutch. Pure street car. Supercharger was off. 340 hp rear wheels. First race I went to. Where you there? How did you do? I think Greg Allen had the quickest time and he is not a cobra. A turbo mazda 1800 super seven. I was the slowest expect for the 4 cylinder there. The car was not set and the walls are too hard for the car. I now have bigger brakes, 17" tires and some driving skills. Joe Rodamista is one of the best smooth driver I know in a cobra. He does have a wieght advantage due to the FIA. He has helped me with springs and shock set up on my car and reading tire temps for the right alignment. He's a class act. Don Dommer is also a class act. and runs a 20 year old car. I have the highest respect for both and not because they both own ERA cars. Smith brothers and friends Dennis O. Greg Allen and the list goes on. You are not a plus for this. I hope never to meet you or Evan racing. You both do nothing for this sport of nice people.
Jamo I think he needs a Seeing eye dog to read the 200 lbs different between an all iron FE motor and alum shelby. The correct numbers for the 427 was added later my Fault. Rick Lake