New 427 vs old 427

[Ken Oikawa]

Originally posted by Jeff Frigo
Evan:

An official time is done with a fifth wheel. The 13.8 sec. time has been disputed for many years. If you look at the time that cars do it in today, and take into consideration the tires they had in the 60's, it is very doubtful.

If Miles did it, how was it timed, and who did the test? SAI?

I would believe it if Road and Track, or Car and Driver (I think they were around back then) did the test themselves. Show me one of these, and I would call that official.

Here is a reference, Nov. 1965 SPORTS CAR GRAPHPIC, but the author just states that Miles went from 0-100mph-0 in 13.2 secs.
You can find link here:

http://www.erareplicas.com/history/scg_427/page5.htm

This is just a link to page 5 but the whole article is there.

[Jeff Frigo]

Blueprinted race car engine (I'm sure more than 600 hp), and slicks. That is believable. Now tell me it could be done with 150 less hp, and street tires and only be .6 sec. slower and I will eat my shorts! The car was also probably at least 200 lbs lighter than a street car. Sorry.

[Ken Oikawa]

Here is a quote from SPORTS CAR GRAPHIC Nov. 1965 issue:

"Once upon a time. Aston Martin made a big thing out of going from zero to 100 and hack to zero in less than 30 seconds. Ken Miles took one of the street 427 machines out and did zero to 100 to zero in 13.2 seconds. This was done on concrete. On asphalt things get a bit slicker. Due to wheel spin with the street tires (Goodyear Blue Dots), and the fact that the straight at Riverside had been used for a big drag meet wherein several cars had grunched on the line, the best we could get with the street machine was 110 mph in 13.2 seconds through the quarter. It was the first street machine we'd ever driven that would keep the tires lit up for the full quarter in every gear. The race car, with its "blueprinted" engine and huge rear tires, got a full second off of that, blasting through the trap at 6500 in third gear. "





'

[Evan H.]

Jeff: Its easy. Just have faith. Don't question the legend. Just go with it. Kinda like that scene in Indiana Jones when he has to have faith in taking that step into the abysis.

Some things are sacred and should not be questioned.

Have faith. It will set you free.

After all it was published repeatedly by the car magizines so it must be true.

[ERA535]

Hot Rod magazine did a 0-100-0 contest a while back and an ERA did it in 12.07 seconds.

[John McMahon]

Evan,

How come you're always comparing a 'stock' 427SO with a 'stock' 351W......but in this case with the 13.2 second timing of a monster 427 race motor, everything is acceptable????

Just a wee bit biased aren't we????

[Turk]

I can't belive you guys..
Everyone argues whatever they own to be the best. Everything else be damned!

Evan, they'll never get it. They are just jealous!

You are arguing with one guy who drives an Audi, another who loves small blocks, and another who lives in NJ.
Give up man, they all stick together.

Rick, the NOS block I found was brand new still in cosmoline and I had to pay $4500.00 for it. It seems the prices keep going up. Just last night I tried to buy another on EBAY, and $4550.00 was not enough to make the reserve.

It is true they are getting harder and harder to get but they are out there like Evan is.

I prefer the Iron block, not because it makes more HP or it is heavier, or that it has better oiling etc. I prefer it simply because it is one of the components I can still put in my cars that is original.

When I owned the ERA and was asked if it was real, it was always nice to be able to say, The engine, transmission and the rear end ARE.

It wasn't just Ken Miles, or Road and Track making these claims on Cobra numbers.
My uncle's second cousin did the 0-100-0 in 13.7 seconds. This event was well documented in Turkish Racing Journal.

Annual Fig and Olive Run just outside of Istanbul in 1966 with 7 observers and witnesses have signed of on this event as being the real thing.

The document was also signed by my uncle Mustafa Pasha. There are even some goat blood at the bottom of the document attesting to it's authenticity.

Aluminum is man made. Iron made the man.

I think this year they will change the name of the contest in Hawai to Aluminum Boy instead of IronMan!

I also would like to come clean on having tampered with the poll count.
The fact that it kept on reading 427 repeatedly should have been obvious to everyone. Obviously for some it wasn't. 411 additional vots were cast in Chicago by dead relatives of mayor Daley.

For those who take these things too seriously I apologize. Now go vote somewhere else.

If one of the choices ended up higher than the other will that be the definitive end to this argument? If it is, that too can be arranged.

Only people who should use aluminum motors should be those with a weight disadvantage. Aluminum would go a long way to ofset the weight balance.

If aluminum is so good, why don't they put aluminum sleeves in Iron motors? Haha!


TURK

[Excaliber]

Aluminum Man, in Hawaii? Heck, maybe I'll run that race, ha ha. Iron Man? No way!

Goats Blood? LOL

Ernie

[Jamo]

Turk

Funny how you left out that a group of Armenians did it in 12.9 seconds in their bare feet as they were being chased by your freeking uncle until they reached the end of the cliff.

I think iron suits you--since you are the last human left from the Iron Age.

For me, it was simple--lose weight or go with more power in a lighter package.

[Turk]

Jamo.
I DO understand your predicament.
You said "--lose weight or go with more power in a lighter package."......

If I had known, I would have saved you tons of money, I wouldn't have sent the steaks. Send the uneaten meat back and put in the iron block. Save! Save Save!

TURK
The Dietician

[Great Asp]

I voted, but wanted to see if I get a little loving cup next to my name.

Great Asp

[Jamo]

Thank you dear friend--but I consider steaks to be diet food.

[RICK LAKE]

Hi Turk I know why you go with iron and OEM parts. Your cars are some of the finest Quality when done. If you blue print that motor,what is the machinist bill? In the end we both are spending the same, your is orginal as possible and mine it for play. I have the first ERA with power steering and for racing it helps both in autocross and roadcourse. This is what makes each car different. People in this forum cann't read and this is how crap starts. ERA family will leave a chair open for thanksgiving and christmas dinners. I hope a virgin block is OK. With no heat cycles it should be fun to watch the first fireup. DON"T WORRY the SMOKE is normal. Rick Lake

[Turk]

How did I get dragged into this?
I know the NOS Iron block will require machining. The Aluminum block is ready to use, right?

Who is trying to save money? To save money first you got to have some, or some left....Then we'll talk about saving!

Power steering in your ERA? And you say it is for "autocross", what is this the Special Olympics?? C'mon, Rick loose the PS.

That is BS!

TURK

[Evan H.]

Turk: Bingo! Yes, as I've stated before jealousy is a terrible thing. Slants ones opinions and makes for unfounded bias. However, between the two of us I think we can lead them to the light.

The article Turk cites is also true. Miles time was actually bested by a Turkish driver in a 427 Cobra with street tires no less. I have pictures of the driver wearing his Fez affixed with chin strap behind the wheel for those that don't believe it! How's that for DOCUMENTATION, JEFF?! You want "official" time? There's your official time.

As noted by the most rabid of aluminum block proponents, he himself admited that he first tried to find an original SO but due to unacceptable specimens opted for the "new improved" 427.

Good original servicable blocks are out there just like me as stated. Many who can't find good servicable blocks go aluminum.

The phoney & flawed reasoning for the aluminum block being a "better" choice are as follows:

1. Maybe you really want the weight savings of a lighter block. If you really want that "weight" advantage and it is REALly going to make a difference to you then aluminum may be your better choice. However, if weight is that important and if you are going to autocross the car or play racer and weight is the main concern why not opt for the "best" engine of all for this..the vaunted SB???? After all can't you get 700 hp easy out of a 351W at 1/4 the cost???? Parts are less expensive and more available too. Its the engine of choice for that "serious" play racer in us all. Also don't you gain alot of that weight back with POWER STEERING? Just asking?

Additional weight savings can also be had with a supercharged GN 6 cyl. Consult with Justa6. After all isn't he blowing everyone's doors off? Jamo this may be the ticket for you big guy. Every pound counts for the truly performance minded.

If weight savings are the goal you guys going for the aluminum 427 CENTER OILER really missed the boat!

2. Or maybe its the horsepower you can build that baby up to. Those were fantasic numbers for the aluminum block "CENTER OILER". I mean like...WOW! Rated for 2000 hp! Aluminum block wins that battle. No doubt about it. Thats impressive!

But no one answered my previoius question. I'll ask again for those that missed it and those that ignored it. How many of you macho dudes are running right now over 750hp? A 2000hp Cobra ought to be a scream (literally) on the autocross course or open track day. Everyone needs one of those 2000hp aluminum engines. I'm sure alot of you are qualified to race such a vehicle. Life insurance paid up???

3. Or maybe its the claimed "extra" strength of the 427 CENTER OILER that caught your eye. No one answered this question either so I'll ask it again too. How many of you drive hard enough to blow up a 427 SO or have done so on the race course. Your certainly not going to do it on the street. Maybe you drive harder than those that drove a 427SO to 5 SCCA A production titles or repeated LeMans victories. If the answer to this question is that you do drive it hard enough to blow a SO up then you qualify to drive the 2000hp aluminum motor referenced in #2 above so by all means, go for it.

Don't get me wrong. The new Shelby aluminum block is a beautiful thing. They make for an awesome engine.

Just be truthful when that amazed admirer looking at the car of his dreams asks the question " Is that a real 427 Side Oiler?" Now for the moment of truth.

Remember. There is no substitute for the REAL thing to the purist... Now where did I put that Steppen Wolfe CD???

BTW: John: 13.8 time was done as I understand in an SC. Even if it was done in a Comp car both sported a 427SO. Right??? The point is an original 427SO set the time.

FEnis envy. Its a terrible thing.

[RICK LAKE]

Hi Turk I wanted to see how much more after buy your motor you would spend to clean up or blueprint the block. THATS ALL. My motor was ready to be put together, machine work was checked nothing was needed to be done. P/S is great,Turk if you come to Run&Gun I will let you drive my car. Maybe you can being your car and we can see time differents. Which tires do you want to run? You can have the HP, car runs faster without supercharger. The autocross is not about power, it's about handling and driving. P/S makes it easier for driving. Do any of your car have Power steering?? Maybe for could send them back and get manual put it. Hey Evan go buy all the iron block you want. 150 lbs off any car is worth it. Jealious, NOT IN THIS LIFETIME. P/S put 18 lbs on my car, rack,pump,lines, cooler and fluid. It is worth the trade. That is the wieght different BETWEEN the old rack off and the WHOLE new assembly, also the bump steer is gone. Bob ( JustA6 ) is not supercharged. AGAIN WRONG INFO. He is running a nascar type built motor that run's 10's in the 1/4. Why bring this up??? His car is going to run 9's on the bottle next year. I have not seen anybody racing a 351 windsor with 700 HP yet, maybe on the bottle, not straightup. Dennis O of Superformance is running a dry sump 408 putting 650 hp. That's the strongest one I HAVE SEEN. If I was serious racing I would go to a mono-cock cobra body, carbon fiber, Nascar motor, clutchless 5 spd, full roll cage, car wieght 1900 lbs with driver, who is 205 lbs. I have fun at this race. I have been the slowest at both races. SO WHAT. Evan I have a horse in the back yard that I lead to water and drinks when he wants, You Just don't understand... You Wax I will race. Hey Turk one more thing, You will alway be older. How many times have you gone out on the track and raced for 20-30 minutes, TIRED WHEN DONE, not me In another 10 tens you will need P/S. See you later. Rick Lake

[Back in Black]

"a group of Armenians did it in 12.9 seconds in their bare feet as they were being chased by your freeking uncle until they reached the end of the cliff. "


I could do it in 6 seconds FLAT AND not lose my fedora, willingly jumping INTO the abyss...IF they were Armenian sheepherders!

[Jamo]

Aw come on BinB--slow down a little...

[Turk]

I have NEVER "gone out on the track and raced for 20-30 minutes, TIRED WHEN DONE".. Not me.

How bad a shape I would have to be to sit in the stands drinking beer and smoking a pack of cigarettes and get tired? I can do that standing on my head.

You see, I don't race. That is why NO power steering. I'll let you younger racers install Power Steering. Space is at a premium under the hood with a BB.

All my other cars have a power steering. They all weigh more than the Cobra does, and none are Cobras.

I am looking for an after market PS pump for the Harley however.

TURK

[RICK LAKE]

Hi Turk Jesse James is in California. I know he can build a one of a kind with Power Steering and Steering Dampener. This man is tops in his Field. Just say your over the hill and need help. If that donesn't work say your the Assist. Mayor of Vacaville. You see the truth somes out, we build to different cars for 2 different styles of racing. You bench and autocross. You build orginal and mine has a purpose for racing and we are both happy. Turk go and get a cold one a $20.00 cuba cigar and take it out of peddy cash. Have a happy day. don't forget to tip the bartender. Rick Lake