FE high oil consumption problem

[ADR]

The Total Seal rings can be kinda scary, I have used them for many years in turbo Buicks and never had a problem. I have seen these rings do things that were amazing like dry up and engine that used to push oil out of every orofice when it hit boost.

But now I am having oil consumption problems with my 2000' Lightning. The engine got a complete rebuild using CP piston (+.020) and a file to fit ring set.....at the last minute I substituted a new Total Seal gapless top ring. Now the truck uses probably a quart to 150/200 miles and the oil breathers are dry for once in its life. I have put a vacuum on the crankcase and that helped but didn't nearly solve the problem. My thinking is that the Lightning came with a low tension oil ring, stock and somehow the gapless top ring has thrown things out of wack. When the truck was stock it had a blowby problem...the oil breathers were wet all the time and dribbled down the side of the vavle covers, it was ugly.
Now the breathers run dry and there is no blowby problem to be seen but now it uses oil.
I think the stock low tension oil ring needed a certain amount of blowby to keep the oil down in the cylinder and keep oil cosumption under control. If this is the problem then it is definately my fault for mixing and matching piston rings.

Oh well I wanted to pull the motor and mess with it some more anyway.......sorry to ramble but I was hoping some of this might help someone else.
Dale

[Wayne Maybury]

I will try to answer some of the questions and I will ask the builder about the other points that were raised.

The engine was resleaved because it was leaking anti freeze, I believe from between the block and cylinders.

It would have to be assumed that the cylinders were properly honed since Dove put the engine together the last time. They are the ones that used the gapless rings.

The engine has a rather large aluminium oil pan, I don't know which make or model but I will find out.

I will also get details on the ventilation, the oil pressure, and rod side clearance.

The engine builder is very experienced with street engines, drag engines, and dirt modified engines. He primarily builds small block Fords but also does BB Fords, BB & SB Chevs, and Mopars as well as various other engines. I opened this thread since I was talking to him about the Dove engine which was in his shop and he was telling me that he was at his wit's end trying to figure out what was wrong with this engine. He said that he cannot see why this engine was using so much oil. His theory is that the rings are to blame since everthing else appears to be in good order. He was wondering if there was some sort of "FE" or "Dove" quirk involved that he wasn't aware of. He has built quite a few FEs over the years and has never run into this problem before. Note: Dove built the engine, not him but now the engine owner has come to him to fix the oil consumption problem.

He told me that he is not going to use gapless rings when he puts it back together.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Wayne

[Jeff Frigo]

I just e-mailed this thred to George at Guessford. Lets see what he has to say.

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Let's have more information on the Intake manifold..is it one of the Dove Tunnel Wedge designs and tell us the pressure check results?
When the heads were pressure checked...tell me what was found....are they Dove Alum. Heads?
What intake gasket are you using now?
So many possibilities....but let's talk heads and intake pressure check results...and not for water but vacuum leaks...
George

[Wayne Maybury]

I would like to thank everyone for trying to help out on this one. I visited the engine builder yeaterday and got answers to many of the questions as well as some additional information about the history of this engine.

First off, more on the history. I have indicated a couple of times that I wasn't sure if Dove rebuilt or replaced the engine, well they replaced it. The original engine was cast iron. On 2 separate occasions, cylinders had to be resleeved because of leaking antifreeze. After that the block began to disintegrate or crumble with bits of the casting falling off, then being picked up by the oil pump. Dove couldn't repair it so they replaced it, this time with an aluminum engine.

The new engine was installed in the Cobra. First time out it burned a rocker shaft after a half hour or so. It was assumed that the shaft was faulty so it was replced. Next time out it burned the rocker shaft again. This problem was obviously more serious than just a bad rocker shaft, it wasn't getting any oil. The problem was traced to a poorly aligned cam bearing which wasn't allowing any oil to get to one head. That was fixed and as soon as the car was driven, it became apparant that it was taking a lot of oil.

Last winter the heads were removed and checked. Everything appeared fine the valve seals were changed and the heads reinstalled. No improvement. It is winter up here so the engine is now out of the car and disassembled which brings us to the present time.

Now to answer some questions.

Tom Lucas, FE Specialties.
He didn't measure the rod side clearance or the bearing clearance yet but he will as soon as he gets some other engines out of his shop. The oil pressure was 60 psi hot at driving speeds.

George Anderson, Guessford.
Yes, it has a Dove 2X4s Tunnel Wedge Intake and Dove heads. The intake has been powder coated pale grey.

He has not done a pressure test on the intake or the heads since he doesn't build all that many FEs so he would have to make plates etc to do the pressure test. He doesn't know of anyone that has the parts necessary to do a pressure test on FE parts. If you feel that a pressure test is absolutely necessary, he will look at fabricating the necessary hardware.

The intake gaskets are by Mr. Gasket and are made of dark fiborous material with no sheet metal involved, approximately 1/16" thick. He described them as being very similar to Felpro high performance gaskets. I peeled a piece off the intake and it is either black or very dark blue.

Some one inquired about the oil pan and I said it was aluminium. It is a large capacity oil pan with baffles, etc. It is made of metal not aluminum. I was mixed up since it is powder coated and looks like aluminium.

Thanks again for the help,
Wayne

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

I'd put a pressure check at the very top of my list on that 2X4 intake with special emphasis on the push rod hole porosity as they run by the intake runners...many of these intakes have problems in the push rod holes

http://www.gessford.com/projects/ima...akePC-01BT.jpg

some images of the plates required
http://www.gessford.com/projects/ima...Intake-013.jpg

The heads need to be P/C'd also....I think you'll find the problems.
George

[edwhite7]

I have the same Dove tunnel wedge intake and Dove heads and used about a quart of oil every 200 miles. I could pull off the carbs and look down the runners and see the oil on the top of the valves. When I pulled the intake I noticed that the gaskets were oiled. I also had trouble once in a while with the idle. Classic intake leak. I talked to Mike at Shelby Enterprises and he said that there is a known problem with aluminum heads and intake sealing. I found that by continuing to retorque the intake my problem has gone away. I don't know what the torque value is as I did it by hand after bringing it to spec with a wrench. It is much higher than recommended. If you choose to go this route make sure your intake bolts are as long as possible. I worry about pulling the threads out of the Dove heads. The clue for me was the idle problem, most of the time it would idle OK but once in a while it would idle high.

good luck.

[Wayne Maybury]

George

Many thanks, I will pass on the information.

edwhite

Interesting, I will ask if this engine had an idle problem.

Wayne

[Wayne Maybury]

George

Thanks for your input. While the pressure test has not been done yet, it sure looks like you have nailed down the source of the problem. The Dove intake has metal sleeves in five of the push rod holes. This indicates (to me at least) that this intake had some serious problems and the sleeves were pressed into the intake to block leaks.

The engine builder is going to make up a set of plates so that he can do a pressure test on the intake as soon as he gets a chance. I will let you know what he finds.

Thanks again,
Wayne

[Wayne Maybury]

I haven't talked to the engine builder for some time but I visited him yesterday so I can give everyone an update.

First off, I would like to thank George Anderson for his input since a pressure test on the intake hadn't been considered until George made the suggestion. Plates were made and the intake was pressurized. Immediately 3 pushrod tubes began to leak with very little pressure applied. All of the leaks were at tubes that had been sleeved by Dove.

Since this intake had been used on the original cast iron engine with no problem, it is being assumed that the heat applied during the powder coating caused the sleeves to develop the leaks. In any event, the intake appears to be the cause of this oil consumption problem.

Thanks again,
Wayne

[Wayne Maybury]

This turned into a "GOOD NEWS / BAD NEWS" story.

First with the good news. George was absolutely correct, the intake was the source of the oil problem. The intake was repaired, the engine put back together, put back in the Cobra, and fired up. No problems with it for 2 months. Oil consumption was zero.

Now for the bad news. A ticking sound began to get louder and was traced to a broken rocker shaft. Dove sent another shaft which was installed. The owner took the car out for a drive and all hell broke loose after 30 or 40 miles. The new rocker shaft was finished. A cam bearing had spun cutting off the oil supply to the rocker shaft. An over sized cam bushing has been ordered and the engine has now been torn down and has been sent to a machine shop to do the necessary work. It appears that the bore for that cam bushing is slightly bigger than it is supposed to be. This engine cost a fortune and has been apart many times. There always seems to be another problem with it, just around the corner.

Wayne

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Wayne, glad my suggestion proved helpful as I expected the push rod holes to be leaking from your descriptions.
If you need any additional help with the cam bearings or need a special size actually made for your cam bore oversize let me know...we can make the cam bearing for you to any size you need...
George

[Woodz428]

As a long time FE builder/owner I found this a very interesting thread. I've ,of course, known of DOVE for many years but because of their cost (expensive in my book) and a pretty good access to original Ford Hi-Po parts I never purchased any, I'm glad I didn't. For the cost, I have an expectation of quality that doesn't seem to be present, that may be acceptable in a drag engine,but not on the street. Warnings duly noted.

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Hi WDZ.....as a long time user of Dove Products I should advise anyone using their heads and intakes to pressure check them as I would with any ANY Aluminum Head or Intake. I recently had an Edelbrock RPM Intake leak after installation...pissed me off...sorry....we have always pressure checked all our heads and intakes before and after port work and valve work...
Edelbrock and Shelby pass the quality test 99% of the time....Dove in past years was at 50%.....but recently the Intake manifolds I'm recieving have really made progress...five in a row now have been perfect......so we need to take the Dove comments and beatings with a grain of salt and understand the nature of the beast....they certainly deserve the negative comments based on history but have always tried to provide those special products for a special market with great success in many cases....I run Dove Heads anf their 2x4 Intake....mine are great....and I will continue to sell the Castings but only after we check them like we would any product...but they have made GREAT improvements in the past six months....
George

[Wayne Maybury]

Thanks for the offer George but I believe the special cam bushing has already been ordered. I will check with the owner and let you know if he is having any further problems getting the parts.

By the way, I tried to keep to the facts on this thread and not exagerate any of the problems. This particular engine has been a curse from the beginning. Lets hope this is the last problem with it.

Thanks again,
Wayne

[Wayne Maybury]

The over sized cam bearing has been received and the block has been sent out to be machined.

He brought up a couple of other points about this engine when I was talking to him last night. A careful inspection of the block has revealed what appears to be welding near the rear main. This would indicate some sort or repair on a high cost, brand new block. He also said that the rods used were not the ones ordered and paid for (I am not sure which rods he ordered but the engine has Eagle rods in it). All in all, he is extremely unhappy with the service he has received from Dove.

Wayne