FE high oil consumption problem

Wayne Maybury · #1 (**permalink**) 12-23-2002, 01:24 PM

A friend has an Everett Morrison with an aluminium Dove FE in it. This engine has been a real pain over the years. About 2 years ago Dove took it back and re-sleaved it etc. Last year it began to consume lots of oil. The thought was that it was filling the valve covers with oil then the oil was being sucked down the valve stems. The engine burns about 1 qt. of oil every 50 miles or so.

An engine builder friend of mine did the heads. The valves and guides were all OK but he put new seals on. He also cleaned up the oil return holes to make sure that the oil was getting back down into the pan. He didn't touch the short block since the cylinders looked like new.

The engine still consumed a lot of oil. They took a pair of old valve covers and cut "windows" in them that were covered with clear plastic. Started the engine, reved it and all oil was observed to be draining perfectly. Therefore the problem isn't the heads.

They removed the engine from the car and began to tear the engine down. Oil was found in all 8 cylinders. So much oil was getting into the cylinders that it wasn't all being burned. He pulled the pistons and everything is perfect. The rings, pistons, and cylinder walls are absolutely perfect. The engine builder is a very experienced race engine builder but he has no idea how the oil is getting into the cylinders. Any of you FE experts out there have any ideas what is happening?

Wayne

coyled · #2 (**permalink**) 12-23-2002, 01:38 PM

Did you run a leak down test before you pulled it apart? That would tell you if it is a ring problem. They may look perfect but that does not mean that they are sealing. If there is lots of crank case preasure, the oil may not drain back to the oil pan going down the road. I had to run external drain backs off the valve covers to the side of the pan on mt 358ci motor. Oil was stuck at the top of the motor. Is there evedence of oil in the intake passages going to the heads? Its possible that oil can be sucked out of the oil galley if the seal between the intake manifoldand the heads are not sealing properly. Good luck, scott

A Snake · #3 (**permalink**) 12-23-2002, 04:25 PM

I'm with Scott on the intake. Mine was a combination of cast iron block, Dove heads and an original Shelby sidewinder manifold.

As the engine was trial fitted by my builder, he had to remove material from the bottom of the intake sealing surfaces and do some serious port matching to get things to line up.

These top end issues are easy to miss, if the builder is not necessarily an "FE" expert.

My engine did use oil, but not quite as bad as yours. About a quart in 300 miles. Plugs always looked good so I could only assume that it was burning it well enough not to foul them.

I have learned that it is not a bit uncommon for a 427 to use oil when they have been set up for racing with the more open clearances. A quart in 50 miles is a bit extreme to be sure. Even in 300 miles like mine is a bit much, but I didn't drive it far enough at one time to worry about it. I did notice that if I drove it hard, it would use more.

I had no valve cover breathers and relied on the breather cap on the oil fill tube and my "disguised" PCV valve which went from the old 60's vent in the back of the intake to the carb.

Al

Wayne Maybury · #4 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 07:21 AM

Thanks for the replies

I don't know if he did a leakdown test or not but I believe that a leakdown will check compression, not the oil rings. Also, as far as the rings go, we are not talking about an engine using a bit of oil, this thing uses it as fast as you can put it in.

While this engine builder is very experienced and builds all types of engines, he prefers working on small blocks. I don't think he considers himself an "FE expert". I will mention the possible intake leak. When you think about it, this could be a good possibility since there was oil in the cylinders when the engine was torn down. A few drops could have run down into each cylinder as the engine was sitting. Anybody else with any ideas?

Wayne

coyled · #5 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 08:06 AM

Wayne, you could also size the oil ring and the top rings in the cylinders to see if they were the correct size for the application. Maybe they are standard and your block is .030 over. A quart every 50 miles leads me to believe that the top rings were not sealing regardless of the oil ring. Good luck, scott.

Jeff Frigo · #6 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 08:51 AM

How about porosity? Dove is famous for that.

Wayne Maybury · #7 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 09:47 AM

coyled

He said the ring gaps are fine. The cylinder walls and pistons look perfect.

Jeff

Porosity? Can you explain more? As I said originally, this engine has been a real pain. The owner has had lots of problems with it.

Wayne

Jeff Frigo · #8 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 10:24 AM

Wayne:

When most hear the word porosity in relation to head or block castings, they automatically think of the water jacket. Porosity can occur anywhere in the block including anywhere the oil is passing through.

If this is the problem, it may be difficult to locate. You can have a pressure test done just like you would for water, but there are many passages to block off. The block would need to stripped down to nothing.

Dove is very well known for casting problems mainly of which are metal that is too soft, and porosity. You may want to call George at Guessford, he was dealt with Dove for many years.

KobraKarl · #9 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 10:40 AM

Wayne, i would ask,does your engine have a hose returning crankcase gasses to your intake manifold ? i had one pulling in a lot of oil on an old "y" block once. big problem with this whole scenario is a quart of oil in 50 mi. would give you enough smoke to look like you are on fire ,foul out your plugs,and be running out your exhaust. are you sure your not loosing it on the hiway at speed with siphon/blowby or ?? merry x -mas karl

mr0077 · #10 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 11:06 AM

Wayne, KobraKarl may be onto it...don't know if the Dove block has the side-oiler gallery with the machine plug at the front (near the oil filter pad), but that plug is a bear to seal. It sees engine pressure, and if it isn't sealed, it will insure that you'll never have rust on the bottom of the car, from all the oil it pumps out at speed, then leave virtually no puddles (under the motor, anyway) when you park it. Pressure leak sounds VERY likely. Let us know what you find.

Wayne Maybury · #11 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 12:39 PM

I know it smoked a lot out the exhaust. Lets face it he found oil in all 8 cylinders when he pulled the heads. I have no idea if it was leaking also.

I will pass on the comments and get back with some answers.

Wayne

SFfiredog · #12 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 01:10 PM

If all the cyls are wet with oil evenly I would doubt it is porosity, an intake gasket or the like. My guess is the crankcase venting system is not working properly or is insuffecient. Does he have valve cover breathers or intake manifold breathers? Both? Neither? I know a guy who installed a rebuilt engine with new aftermarket valve covers that he didn't open the breather holes on. The engine would barely turn over. Is the PCV (if installed)
stuck open? Engine vacuum can easily suck up a quart of oil every 50 miles.
HTH,
Mike

COBRAMAN 484 · #13 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 02:31 PM

Wayne, Ialso have a problem like you. In april of 2000, first time out with the car for that year I had a rod bolt let go and holed the oil pan. The motor was a 454 using a 428 crank. Being that it was so early in the year I did not want to wait around to locate a crank and have pistons made. I located someone who had the parts in stock they would not sell them seperatly but said if I sent them the motor they would rebuild it. Ever since I got the motor back now 484 in its gone through more oil than the exon valdez avg. 200 miles a qt. I called the people but got the runaround. After my lsst three calls with no returns Igave up on them.
Ive done everything to try and locate the problem. Leakdown test,pvc system ,numerous valve seals checked for pressure in the crankcase and tried different manifolds. All to no avail. Its not that I dont know motors. I raced fuel dragsters for seven years and always did my own engines.
Finaly this fall I pulled the engine to find two dimples in the cylinders,the worst one in #7 the other in #1.These were the cylinders that were showing oil on the plugs,#7 would foul between 600 to 700 mi. These dimples sometimes occur when you seize a motor. The engine shop should have gone larger on the bore but pbably only had that one size in stock which was a weird size 4.258. The worst dimple was only .002 deep so we honed the block to 4.263, .030 over. What I think was happining was even though the dimples were way down in the cylinder they were still above the rings at BDC and would pick up oil that was in the dimple and push it back up Anyway thats what I think the problem is and am in the process of having new pistons made.

Rick Parker · #14 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 02:34 PM

Check the back side of the intake valves. If they are dark & wet with oil, the problem will be in the intake manifold seal. Assuming the guides are ok. If the dampness is confined to a single or adjacent cylinders check the intake gasket in that area.

It sucks!

Rick

ADR · #15 (**permalink**) 12-24-2002, 05:04 PM

Could you possibly have low tension oil rings ?

Wayne Maybury · #16 (**permalink**) 12-31-2002, 07:03 AM

I talked to the engine builder yesterday and brought up the points that have been listed here.

He thought of doing a leakdown test but he said that it would be useless since oil is all over the place. Remember doing a compression test and finding it low. You want to know if it is the rings or the valves so you put some oil in the cylinders, compression goes up, the problem is the rings. He said the leak down test would have shown everything was fine because of the oil.

He said the engine does have good ventilation, breather, etc.

Yes, it does leak oil, as he said it is an FE. It has leaked oil since it was new.

He checked and double checked the intake for leaks. Absolutely no sign of any oil leak anywhere. There was very good contact on all surfaces, no sign of anything not perfect.

The cylinders are all in good condition, no sign of any scratches, dimples, or any other signs of wear. The pistons are perfect. Since the engine was using so much oil, the pistons are quite clean.

Here is what he thinks. Since the heads have been done, there was no sign of a problem with the intake, and all eight cylinders had oil in them, he believes that the rings are no good. The rings were installed by Dove when they rebuilt/replaced??? the engine. He said the rings are Total-Seal?? rings. No gap since the ends of the rings overlap. He really doesn't like these rings. He is going to hone the cylinders with a relatively course honer and put in new rings.

The owner has spent a fortune on this engine and has never put much mileage on it. It has spun bearings on 2 or 3 occasions, leaked oil since it was new, leaked antifreeze to the point where several sleaves had to be replaced, had to be rebuilt or replaced (I don't know which) by Dove, and now it uses oil at an unbelievable rate.

Thanks for the replies and I will let you know how it runs once it has been rebuilt.

Wayne

FE Specialties · #17 (**permalink**) 12-31-2002, 07:12 PM

Wayne,
There is a couple of areas of concern here!!
One, as mentioned before, low tension oil rings will definetly lead to high oil compsumption.
Two, how much rod side clearance is in the motor?
And how much bearing clearance?
Your other replies covered a lot of the reasons for oil consumption!! Mainly the oil return-supply to the rockers, but if all this is OK, then check the oil rings and the rod side clearance!!
Also, My FEs DO NOT LEAK. Its really a simple percedure to keep them from leaking along with proper crankcase ventalation!!

Wayne Maybury · #18 (**permalink**) 01-01-2003, 01:17 PM

FE Spec.

I believe that he said the crank and bearings were fine but I will ask him again. I will also inquire about the rod side clearence. Any specific reason why rod bearing clearence and rod side clearence would have an effect on the oil consumption problem?

As far as the leaking goes, this Dove FE has leaked from day one according to my friend. He confirmed that the crankcase has good ventilation.

Wayne

SFfiredog · #19 (**permalink**) 01-01-2003, 05:24 PM

Cylinder wall lubrication comes from oil expelled from the connecting rod side clearances. Engines with excessive rod bearing and side clearance can "throw" too much oil into the bottom side of the pistons and on the cylinder walls for the oil rings to control. I think Tom will agree with me, there are just too many variables involved to accurately diagnos exactly what is going on in your friend's engine over the internet. It is most likely a combination of several of the problems that the others have stated. Also, what does your friend consider "good ventilation"?
I have used Total Seal gapless rings many times with excellent results although just like any quality ring-set it is critical that the proper honing techniques be utilized for the type of rings to be used. Follow the ring manufacturer's finish requirements and there should be no problems.

Tom, are you set up to install screw-in freeze plugs in FE blocks? I chipped my tap on the last job I did and might need one done in a hurry.
--Mike

wtcobra · #20 (**permalink**) 01-01-2003, 06:20 PM

Dove blocks have been known for core shift among other problems. Why was the block re-sleeved? There are a number of variables that have to be addressed to rule out what the problem is on any motor that consumes excessive oil. There appears in this instance that there is no question that the oil on the walls is either excessive or the rings are not doing their job. Of course, as Mike said it could also be a combination of factors and probably is in this case. What was the oil pressure? Many times excessive side clearances will lower oil pressure. There was a Dove block a few years ago in a Cobra, that was in and out of about every FE shop in Ohio, including an extended stay in a shop in Cincinatti. Is this the same car? What oil pan is being used? Stroke and type of crank? Rod length and type of piston? Lots of questions.

wayne



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