Benefits of Roller Cam?

[Chaplin]

My motor is being built right now (428, edelbrock heads, comp. cams roller rockers, 10:1 compression) and I was considering installing a roller cam instead of the standard solid flat tappet. Car will almost exclusively (99.99% of the time) be street driven. Is it worth the added expense?

Thanks for thoughts,
Mike

[larryar]

The professional builders I talked with when having my 428 built all said that FE's do not like roller cams. The exception might be high rpm dragracing. For street it would be a waste of money.
Larry

[flipper35]

As a generalized statement from a novice.

A roller cam will allow better ramp speeds which will allow more lift and duration without the expense of larger overlap. So you get a better cam profile with better idle. Then there is the less friction advantage. As far as not using one in an FE, I don't know.

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by larryar


The professional builders I talked with when having my 428 built all said that FE's do not like roller cams. The exception might be high rpm dragracing. For street it would be a waste of money.
Larry

It would be more correct to say that '60/61 hi-po 390s, 406s, and pre-'66 427s don't like roller cams on the street. The solid lifter only blocks have no provision for oiling the lifters except for splash feed from the rotating assembly. Street motors spend a lot of time idling and running at low RPM, meaning the lifters don't get much lubrication.
This spells death for the needle bearings in the roller lifters. The later 427 blocks and non-hipo 390 and 428 blocks do oil the lifters
but still the maintenence on a roller cam and lifters restricts their use to only the most radical street engines.
There are some good hydraulic roller cams available for the FE.
Or you could just use the tried and true mechanical flat tappet cam for the correct "sound" of a 427 Cobra.
--Mike

[Michael C Henry]

Comp Cams also advised against a roller.in a FE.Not enough oil with street driving and 3 to 5,00 mile life . If not replaced and rebulit at that point it be likely to loose roller bearings and kill engine.I was tempted.

[RICK LAKE]

Chaplin First How is the car coming. You can get a custom cam made to match your car and motor for about 400.00. Next Year I am going the same route with a 533-563 cam. I small blower cam for the street. If you use a pre-oiler I can't see a problem with the bearing in the lifters. Shubeck compos lifter can be used with a roller cam. These lifters are not cheap. E-Mail Crane, Comp Cams, or who ever and give them specs and see what they say. Try George A and FE Specialist also. Roller donot make more hp by them selves. The cam profile can be more radical with faster openings and closing on the valves. Quicker and longer opening of the valve. The friction factor is also a point. They say that a roller motor will make 20 more hp and help the engine run 15-20 degrees cooler, I am from the state of showme. I want to see the dyno sheet. Pro Stock runs roller lifters and Nascar can't, yet they both have motors that will turn 9500 rpms. The simpler you keep the car, the less problem you should have. Will be going to the E-town swap meet in April. If you want to go let me know. Talk to you latter. I forgot How was dinner, what are you getting for Fathers day, a blue stick?? Rick Lake kiddin about the stick

[Chaplin]

Thanks guys for the info. Maybe I'll stick to the KISS principle and stay with the flat tappet.

Rick-
Good to hear from you. Dinner was good, but I would rather have stayed at ERA longer and missed dinner. I am definetely going to the Englishtown swap meet, I am not sure which day(s) yet. Do you what weekend it is scheduled for? Also, jokes about blue sticks are just not funny.

As for the car, it will be going to the painter at the end of next of or the beginning of the following week. At this point, it doesn't look like it will be coming home until first or second weekend of May. But once it's here, I am giving myself 6 weekends to finish it (shooting for 4, but I'm trying to be realistic).

Talk to you later,
Mike

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by RICK LAKE

Shubeck compos lifter can be used with a roller cam. These lifters are not cheap. ?? Rick Lake kiddin about the stick [/b]

Rick,
I am using Schubeck lifters in my tunnel port and the 2 other 427 I'm building for buddies.
They are the best of both worlds. Roller cam power with flat tappet reliablity.
They are not cheap ($720.00 a set) but in the long run will cost less than replacing worn or broken valvetrain parts, or lunching a camshaft!
--Mike

[RICK LAKE]

SFfiredog Hi Mike. I have heard that thiers lifter are great. Some of the bracket 5.0 mustang racers got caught using them. 2 problems that I was told and shown was they are harder than the cam shafts and they cause more heat and friction because of the force on the edge needed to be moved. The lifter we are talking about are flat style not the V-shape like TXF. TXF make the same claim to using a roller cam without roller bearing lifters. I know it is a long ride but I would like to see your car at the Run&GUN in Oct. You could caravan with some of the people out there. I drive solo and its 16 1/2 hours from N.J. to St Lious. It has rained every year I have drove out there. Are the motors you are using have roller bearings for the cam? I was told that a couple of people are using big block chevy roller lifters in there motors because the roller bearings are bigger. Do you bushing your lifter bores? Got to go. Rick Lake

[Anthony]

I've seen those flat tappet style roller lifters advertised, kind of beveled where they make contact with the cam. I wonder though how long they will last, either wearing out the lifters or the cam itself.

A misconception about flat tappet cams is that they slide on the cam. Actually, the cam lobe is tilted, so the flat tappet lifter rides toward the side of the lobe, causing the lifter to spin, not just slide like these new designed flat tappet lifters for roller cams. I wonder about the friction and wear.

Todays oils are so much better than before, especially the synthetics. If your running a .750"+ cam, with really high pressures, then maybe there could be a problem with a roller cam/lifters and extended idling. If you run a .650" lift roller cam, with less spring pressure, maybe it would be fine.

Comparing a flat tappet cam to a roller, of similar lift and duration, expect about a 50-60 hp increase with the roller.

[DMSALKOWSKI]

Sffiredog aka Mike, Are you using Schubeck's radius lifter on a real roller cam or his flat tappet lifter on a solid lifter cam. I was not clear based on your post. If you are considering his radius lifter...I think you may be making a monumental mistake!!!! Sounds great in theory...complete disaster in reality. I should know... I was the unfortunate soul dumb enough to be the first victim in the U.S. to try one of his sets. Complete meltdown!! Let me know.... and I will provide you with all the gory details. We have very similar motors by the way.... I run 58Mm Webers on a 482ci Shelby block. David

[a427sc]

Radius lifters? Nuthin new there. Had em in my old flat motor, used with the famous "404" cam. Like the T shirt says, "Been there, Done that"

McFEz

[SFfiredog]

Hi guys,

Rick,
I promise to make it to RnG but unfortunately, it won't be this year, at least not with my car. I have too many other Cobras to finish at this time and that means my car comes last. My engine is progressing slower than I would like but I am making headway. Look for my 504 in '04
Schubeck gave me a contact at Comp Cams that grinds cams specifically to take advantage of the composite lifters.
I am running the flat tappet light-weight lifters. I'll bet they are 70% lighter than a stock lifter.
The cam blanks are hardened to a higher Rockwell factor and the lobes are very fast (for a flat tappet) and have a very short lash setting (.010" to .012") I also have the lobes cut with .003" more taper to make the lifter spin a bit more. The trade off is slightly increased lifter bore wear but I can live with that easier than a flat cam. I also mount the cam in a lathe and de-bur or radius the cam lobes then spin the cam and polish the lobes with increasing finer grades of Scotch-brite pads.
I run 190 to 200 lbs seat pressure and 500 lbs over the nose.(.698")

I know several people using these lifters (the flat tappets) and all report great success. Most of the national record holders in the NHRA stock classes are using them as well. One racer reports having used 15 different cams with the same set of Schubeck lifters. They also require no break in, just like a roller cam.
I like to try new things (within reason!) and the idea of the great simplicity of these lifters along with the cam specs allowed and the RPM that they are capable of I thought I'd take one for the team and try them out.
I would think that the Ford roller lifter would have a bigger wheel than a BB Chevy because of the lifter diameter difference (.842" Chevy vs. .874" Ford) I could see using a Mopar roller lifter (.904")
Maybe they're not stock size Chevy lifters.
I haven't had to bush the lifter bores yet. I have done it in some of the Clevelands that I have built though

DM,
Thanks for the info and I would very much like to hear about your unfortunate luck with the radius Schubecks.
I know that the radius lifters have gone through several transformations and improvements. I'm sorry to hear you were one of the unlucky pioneers
I'm running 58mm TWM/Weber throttle bodies

--Mike

[RICK LAKE]

Chaplin Hi Mike I just got my computor back. It had a worm and virus. Someone hacked into it. I e-mailed you a couple of times, check to see if yours is OK. Sorry, didnot know till last week. Lockup problems. Rick Lake

[Ant]

Has anyone tried the Schubeck roller X type lifter?

[Excaliber]

The ERA I bought came with a roller cam. A roller broke and I was very lucky it did not destroy my engine. AFTER that I found out solid roller rockers are OFTEN a problem in ANY engine. Technology is advancing and there are better designs available for roller rockers now than there were even last year.

You know what? I don't care! Unless your drag racing I cannot see WHY one would even RISK having them

With roller rockers in the 1/4 mile: 11.90
With my new flat tappet cam 1/4 mile: 11.99

I will never again RISK MY MOTOR for a freaking 100th of a second by using a roller cam. Been there, done that, PAID big money to find out I don't want to go back.

[DuckRyder]

Excaliber,

Didn't your old engine have tripple springs with very high pressures? BIG solid roller?

[Excaliber]

Actually I was mistaken about the "third" spring. It was dual spring with a "damper", a typcial application for both rollers and flat tappet.

My roller had about 8,000 miles on it but I think what "pushed it over the edge" was ME! I didn't have specs for the valve settings and thinking a wider gap is better than being to tight on the lash I set the lash TO BIG.

Turns out those little rollers don't like being "pounded" and correct valve lash is crititcal with a roller lifter. Never the less, no rollers for me ever again (UNLESS I'm going drag racing only).

[jdog]

Check my photo gallery for some pic's of my 427fe w/Erson rollers.
Dino'ed at 550hp & 580tq!
I was shooting for 600hp but got 'weak' about going too radical of a cam, after all it is a 'street' car!

jdog

[cobra427mnsi]

jdog

Are you talking about roller rockers? I think the post is talking about roller cam.

Paul