Erson Roller Rockers

CJ428CJ · #1 (**permalink**) 06-10-2003, 06:36 PM

I'm in the process of swapping some stock adjustable rocker arms for a set of Erson roller rockers. I'm also running the Edelbrock heads so I'm under the impression I need the Erson shim kit E913020 to get the roller tips to line up with the valve ends properly. Does anyone know where I can get that kit without waiting forever. I tried Summit but they can't ship it for 4 weeks. I tried DSC Motorsports but they won't answer their phones and they haven't returned my messages. I tried Flatlanders and they don't have them in stock and can't tell me for at least a couple of days how long it will take to get them.

I'm too impatient to wait 4-5 weeks for these things. Does anybody know who else might stock the kit?

Chris

Ibr8k4vetts · #2 (**permalink**) 06-10-2003, 07:38 PM

Chris,
I don't know where to get shims quick, But I did have too get them for my 427 with Edelbrock heads I also had to restrict the oil going to the rocker to .040, Hope this helps.
Mike

CJ428CJ · #3 (**permalink**) 06-10-2003, 08:20 PM

Thanks Mike. I plan on restricting the oil to the rockers too. On another post, I thought I read the restriction should be .090 rather than .040. Does anyone know what's best?

Chris

Ibr8k4vetts · #4 (**permalink**) 06-10-2003, 08:29 PM

I started at .090 and the valve springs were swimming in oil! so I keep going down till I got down to my smallest drill bit. I think .040 is still too much oil. I also hear that .040 is the size the latest Edelbrock heads are down too.
Mike

RICK LAKE · #5 (**permalink**) 06-11-2003, 04:29 PM

CJ428CJ Did you try Gessford Machine?? Rick lake

CJ428CJ · #6 (**permalink**) 06-12-2003, 09:29 AM

Rick,

Thanks for the suggestion. I finally got ahold of someone at DSC and they told me they'd have them available to ship by this Friday so I went ahead and ordered a kit.

Chris

RobbMc · #7 (**permalink**) 06-12-2003, 12:18 PM

Hello,

New member here. I'm the engineer who designed the
Erson roller rockers for FE Fords and Mopar V8's.

All Erson products can be purchased directly from
Erson. Call 775-882-6600 and ask for Steve Tanzi or Tom McGibbon. Tell them Robb from engineering sent you.

This is the quickest way to get Erson products and the prices are very close to Summit (maybe 5% higher).

By the way, for those of you who have tried to purchase rockers in the past and found that they were on back order, we now have 20 sets of FE roller rockers in stock.

CJ428CJ · #8 (**permalink**) 06-12-2003, 05:02 PM

Robb,

Hey, thanks for the info. I didn't realize I could order from Erson direct. I appreciate the information.

Chris

Sheppard · #9 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 04:18 PM

AS to the oil restrictors......

There is some thought that oil cools the valve springs.....so that swimming in oil might be toooo much oil depending upon what "swimming" means.......but the oil to the top should do more than lube the rockers.....a big oil pan and big return holes wouldn't hurt.

just my .02

JAY

Ibr8k4vetts · #10 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 06:19 PM

Sheppard,
By swimming I mean the Two back valve springs were under oil!

Mike

PJS50 · #11 (**permalink**) 06-26-2003, 01:08 PM

Isn't restricting the oil to upper end a bad idea for a "street" engine which WILL be idling for a while under normal usage?
I know a total "race" engine can benefit from this mod but for street, people that know WAY more than me always said just do a "opening" of the returns, this will get the excess oil back into the pan quicker... It's also a given to use a high cap. pan on either street or race engines...
Am I wrong?

RobbMc · #12 (**permalink**) 06-26-2003, 01:15 PM

When using needle bearing rockers it's a good idea
to restrict the oil to the heads even on a street
motor. Needle bearings don't need nearly as much oil. And if you don't restrict the oil with needle bearing rockers you will get too much oil upstairs . I would start with a .090" restriction and then try it. If you still have too much oil under the valve covers, restrict it to .060 and try again.
It may even require smaller restrictors if you hold the engine at high rpm for long periods.

Clois Harlan · #13 (**permalink**) 06-26-2003, 01:25 PM

My heads are restricted with.082 jets. I do both (race and cruise) and I have a Sig Erson roller rocker arms on my Edelbrock alum heads.

More than enough oil up top.

Clois

John Martin · #14 (**permalink**) 05-29-2005, 07:24 PM

Bringing this to the top

Keithc8 · #15 (**permalink**) 05-29-2005, 09:08 PM

We use these rockers all the time and would bet we buy more than about anybody right now. You can also use a valve spring shim to shim the stands up with. The main thing is to use studs instead of bolts to hold the rockers down to the heads. Edelbrock has a kit for this that we use on all of the Edelbrock heads as well. Good luck, Keith Craft

RICK LAKE · #16 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 06:54 AM

RobbMc For the oiling of your rockers and the valve springs I would think that those little roller bearings need all the lube they can get for keeping them cool and no metal on metal contact. In the last 2 years alot of bearings are coming from over seas. Not sure which country but they chrome plated of the races SUCKS. I have rebuilt over 400 rears due to bearing failures. I have seen roller bearings pounded flat and come apart. I don't see how more oil can hurt anything. I have never heard anyone say that there motor blow up from to much oil in that location. I was looking for a rocker setup. couple of years ago. Carl England Built the same setup you are now selling, his is enclosed on the top for more support and the lift was limited to .675 cam lift or the rocker hits the top of the plates. I ended up with a set of T&D rocker on my 2nd motor. I am building a torque motor and trying to keep the lift under .600. Nascar, NHRA , and Dirt track car run spray bars built into the valve covers. The only thing I do is enlarge the oil return system and redirect it to other places like the cam lobes before the lifter rides up on it. I have been told that a roller can skip on a surface from some oils. I use EOS and a good 10-40 oil, 8 quart system with a 3 quart accusump. Will go to a dry sump with the next motor. Thanks for your time. Rick Lake

RobbMc · #17 (**permalink**) 06-02-2005, 03:53 PM

True, more oil can only be a good thing for the needle bearings and for cooling the springs.

However, the problem with needle bearings is that they don't restrict the oil flow like stock rockers or rockers with bushings. The oil passes through the gaps between the needles very easily.
This can cause the valve covers to nearly fill with oil which can cause a problem if it drains the pan and starves the oil pump. Also, having too much oil in the valve covers can encourage oil getting past the valve guides and blue smoke in the exhaust. So in most cases it is necessary to retrict the oil when using needle bearing rockers.

When you have pressure fed shaft oiling to the friction surface of the rocker (like FE and Mopar engines), needle bearings aren't as necessary as they are with stud mount rockers where the oil is "splash" fed via the pushrods. Needle bearings were first installed in stud mount rockers because the stock rocker balls were burning up under high spring loads. If it had been possible to pressure feed the balls, needle bearings might not have been necessary.

While needle bearings certainly work well with shaft mount, pressure fed systems like an FE engine, a good bushing material works as well and restricts the oil better. (However, I don't care for the aluminum rockers that have neither a bearing nor a bushing. Aluminum is not a great bearing material because if there is even a momentary drop in oil pressure, the aluminum will either gall or wear).

The advantage of a good bushing or needle bearing is that you don't need a constant supply of pressurized oil for things to live. Just a good splash of oil will do and momentary loss of oil pressure does no harm. Needle bearings require even less oil than bushings but have the disadvantage of allowing more pressurized oil to pass through them.

John Martin · #18 (**permalink**) 06-02-2005, 07:23 PM

I would think (hope) if you had a momentary loss of oil pressure in the aluminum , non bushing , nor roller type rocker , ok Dove , and were using a synthetic erl ; yood be ok ... ya think ?

RobbMc · #19 (**permalink**) 06-02-2005, 11:19 PM

Depends on how long you lose oil pressure and how stiff the valve springs are.

I have seen several aluminum rockers without bearings/bushings that have galled so badly that they are practically "welded" to the shaft and couldn't be beat off with a hammer. (the usually break too when they seize). I have seen even more so worn out that the I.D. is visually egg shaped.

The next post will be from someone who has run rockers without bushings or bearings for a decade without a single problem. I don't doubt it, especially with a flat tappet cam. I'm just reporting what I found when I was researching FE rockers for the Erson design.

RICK LAKE · #20 (**permalink**) 06-03-2005, 04:54 AM

Robb Mc Rob thanks for the info. The guy you are talking about has not read the thread yet

I was asking about running titiaminium valves on the street and for autocrossing and road racing. 3 major makers of the valves said no. Heat cycles and they pound the valve seats out. You know I found the missing link that has been running them for almost 10K with no problems. The only thing that might help would be thermo coatings on the stems. The seats are a special material extra hard. I guess the saying works, you get what you pay for, nothing extra.

I thought that some of the roller rocker companys would have a rocker with an oil port through the adjuster and into the roller body to drip oil on the bearings. You would need hollow push rods. The splash idea is good but direct oiling is better. Rob with no oil pressure for a short time the roller bearing are going to get pounded and the surface they are on will get the same. They will last a little longer than a ball but the ball will not put 20+ little 1/16" harden steel pieces in my motor. I don't have screens epoxyed in it. I other point is that under .600" cams the hot thing is thes beehive springs from comp cams. I am going to try a set myself. Have also heard they don't work and some have broken. The whole story is yet to be told. GM has be running these spring for 6-7 years. Have seen 2 broken springs against how many? I have just resealed a motor with 187,000 miles on it everything is in great shape, springs are soft but oil changes every 3K. Motor is clean inside. Got to go Rick Lake



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