lifter and oil pressure questions

leadertape · #1 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 12:24 PM

I have a newly rebuilt 428CJ FE. I am going through the problem with solid lifters installed without blocking off the lifter oil galleys. The oil pressure is running 50 psi maximum and 10-15 at idle after warmup. I want to increase oil pressure. I restricted the oil to the rocker arms and that didnt increase the oil pressure. I want to plug off the lifter galleys but dont want to take the engine out. Any ideas??

KobraKarl · #2 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 12:56 PM

LT,

Hydralic lifters

KK

leadertape · #3 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 02:44 PM

KK, it might come to that (hydrulic lifters). I have a ERA and not sure if the cam will come out the front. I guess I'm trying to decide the best solution. If I have to pull the engine to solve the low oil pressure problem I will. Thanks for your reply.

ted · #4 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 03:33 PM

Does your block have screw in pipe plugs for the two short oil galleys going down to the main lifter galley oil holes?. If so, then a piece of solid material that's 0.0005 to 0.0010" larger than the short galley hole size can be pressed into the hole after removing the galley plugs. This material needs to be just long enough to sit below the main "top oiler" oil galley so as not to restict oil to the rear main. Then just replace the pipe plugs back in the top of the galleys when through.

If you don't have screw in plugs and they're pressed in instead, this would be a tough one as I'm not an advocate of those pressed in plugs after having one come out due to oil pressure. Still....you could do the same blocking as mentioned above but use more pressed in plugs to seal the galley when through. You would probably want to "stake" the plugs to give a little more insurance that they don't come back out. If the motor was out and apart, then I'd say tap the block and put screw in plugs in it at that time.

Sheppard · #5 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 04:08 PM

Low oil pressure usually means worn bearings or that something else is worn or broken and that's why low oil pressure is something to be wary of.....10-15 psi at idle may not be detrimental...."low" oil pressure is relative, if you have 10-15 psi at speed you have low pressure. Obviously 10-15 psi is less than many who have 30 or so at idle. However.....I would get a hold of George at Gessford and get his thoughts before I yanked the engine.......

GOOD LUCK!

KobraKarl · #6 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 04:23 PM

LT,

what year is your CJ?

From ford big block engines; "If you plan to use any hydralic lifter engine, the lifter galleries must be plugged. Easiest way is to plug short galleries tapping off center gallery. Remove cup plugs. Drill and tap passage to accept two Allen head plugs,one obove center oil gallery and one below. use small amount of sealer, repeat on other side."

you can pull the cam on an ERA. while in the car.

Teds solution sounds like a good one . If you have tapped and plugged galleries, the holes below the main gallery will also probably be tapped , in which case you will only need to remove the top plugs and add an allen head plug in the lower hole (again make shure it is below the bottom of the main gallery!

Steve Dickey · #7 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 04:36 PM

Guys,
I spoke to George before putting mine together regarding plugging the gallery while running solid lifters. He is aware lf the mod, however stated "if you had it built here it would not be plugged". That was good enough for me and I did not plug mine. My pressure is fine. I do have the restrictors in place and have 70psi at idle when I fire it up running 5-20wt oil and a racing fliter. After it warms up, about 25 at idle and 50psi at 2500-3000rpm. I suspect it is your bearing clearances.
Steve

Steve Dickey · #8 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 04:42 PM

I forgot, you can pull the engine while it is in the car if you tip it up to clear the cross member. I think it is easier to pull the engine. Steve

ted · #9 (**permalink**) 07-05-2003, 08:28 PM

I'm assuming the oil pump was replaced when the engine was rebuilt. Is the pump a stock replacement or a high volume unit? If the engine has extra bearing clearance put into it, then I'd be checking that it's got a high volume pump. If it's already got the HV pump, then I'd start looking for why the oil pressure isn't higher than what you have. A HV pump with cold oil should pull in the 70-80 psi range at moderate idle.

I built an oil pump tester that checks both volume and pressure before installing the pump in an engine. It's been a lifesaver on those pumps that have relief valves that stick either open or closed or the oil pressure just isn't there. The tester works with a variable speed drill and the drill rpms are basically equal to twice the engine rpms so I can simulate the oil flow through the pump at various engine speeds.

SCOBRAC · #10 (**permalink**) 07-06-2003, 08:31 AM

IMHO,

You aren't losing 35-40 psi at the lifters. It might be costing you 6-8. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't do it, it just might not be all that you hope it is. You may have a standard oil pump installed instead of a HV pump.

I had a similar problem on a fresh 428. My oil pressure was 45-50 cold, 25-35 hot. I pulled the pan and the shop had indeed installed a standard oil pump. My oil pressure went to 70-75 cold to 45-55 hot.

Good Luck

leadertape · #11 (**permalink**) 07-06-2003, 10:29 AM

I really appreciate all of your responses. some of you are asking me questions about engine specs so I'll try to answer . 428CJ iron heads( rebuilt). .002 clearance (rod & main). comp cam ,M57HV oil pump. My engine builder started and ran in the engine, I feel this was done properly. Oil pressure (cold 45 idle 65 @3500-4000rpm).Oil pressure (warm 10-15 idle 40-45 @3000 & 50 @ 5000) I currently put in mobil-1 10w30. I dont feel satisfied with these pressures and think my problem is the un-plugged lifter galleys.The engine builder dose'nt think this is a problem .However he is willing to help me try to improve the pressure. By the way this builder is not a ford man,(my tuff lesson). This is a great web site. Thanks again. LT.

ted · #12 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 09:41 PM

Sounds like the oil galley plug in the driver side lifter gallery directly behind the distributor could be missing. Easy to do if the galley plug was removed by whoever and a non-Fe orientated person is putting the plugs back in the engine.

From your description you've already got a high volume pump and I agree with SCOBRAC in that your substantial lack of oil pressure is more than could be attributed to the loss around the lifters.

GEORGE ANDERSON · #13 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 11:32 PM

Ted has a good suggestion on the front galley plug going to the front lifter on #5, also the front galley plug behind the timing cover is missed on occasion....
George
I would not consider the conversion for your application.

Steve Dickey · #14 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 06:02 PM

I speak from personal experience on this one.

You will have only ten psi when you fire it up, given the size of the leak, not 50 at 3k. Steve

leadertape · #15 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 03:06 PM

Steve, from what everybody is saying my problem is not the lifter galleys but another area. please tell me what you went through with this similar experience. thanks LT.

Mr.Fixit · #16 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 03:30 PM

What makes you think 50 psi is inadequate? That is plenty of pressure. Your engine will live no better or longer with more oil pressure. 35 psi at rpm (hot) is OK. Try 20w-50 if you think the gauge needs to read higher. What is your oil temp when hot? You might be getting you oil to 230 degrees, and that can cause you problems.

Cracker · #17 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 03:48 PM

I'm with Mr. Fixit about the oil. I was told to use only single wieght oil (50 wt) as the downside was a little loss in power but the upside is a bit of insurance. Best of luck!

Cracker

RICK LAKE · #18 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 04:20 PM

Hi Ted I used the same oil pump as you but with a 100 lb spring for the relief valve. I have 100 psi cold and 35-40 psi hot at 750 rpm. at 2500 rpm 60-70 psi with a 15w-40 oil in the motor. Have a canton T oilpan and cooler. After racing the temp is 190-200f The only problem I know of having HV,HP pump is the stress on the disturbutor gear and the pushin of the cam on the front plate. I have a chromepoly shaft to spin the pump. You would have to ask the FE PROs but, the bearings are small for the FE's and the weak point. I would want all the oil pressure and volume to the bottom of the motor. Just because the gauge saids 40 psi doesn't mean that the last rod bearing or main is getting 40 psi. You start your engine in your everyday car and it takes 3-4 second before oil is lubing all the bearing. This is why some of the guys use a accusump as a pre oiler to the motor to stop dry starts. The most damage to a motor is the first 10 seconds of start up. I wonder if the spring for your pump is only a 60 psi spring??

I would start with this first. Good luck Let us know what happens.

Rick Lake

leadertape · #19 (**permalink**) 07-10-2003, 09:41 AM

Guys, Thanks for your comments. I would like to ask Rick Lake if you could give me some info on changing the pump spring. I would like to try this. Mr,Fixit your assurance about 50psi being adequate was good to hear. I'm new to all of this and trying to learn. I would like to ask you, does oil pressure in these FE's vary that much engine to engine. From what I'm hearing this thing should run @ 60 psi just cruising down the road. I tried 20-50wt and did'nt see any difference. The oil temp runs 190 -200 normally. The engine has great power. Thanks LT.

RICK LAKE · #20 (**permalink**) 07-11-2003, 12:10 PM

Leadertape I got my spring fromFord Power Parts in Cali. 562-921-5300. They are building a web site, but are not on line just yet. Take the pump off the motor. Make sure you have the high volume pump. look for the cup or cottor pin that keeps the spring in the housing and take it off and put the new one in stake the plug or cottor pin back in the housing and reinstall. Make sure you have a chromepoly shaft to spin the pump. You could buy a blueprinted HP,HV pump for FFP. You may want to ask George Anderson if he sells pumps already done. I am sure that the oilpump drive is tough on the Disturbutor gear, but check it once a year for wear. when you put the car away for the winter, and while you are doing that, back off the rocker shafts as not to leave a cylinder open the the winter air. This saves valve springs also. FFP have strange store hours, leave a message they will get back to you. Riley Performance might help also, 410-247-3677, Jean or Glen. They are a couple of others but are not too high on my honor list stay in touch Rick Lake



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