What the heck??? - Page 2

427 S/O · #21 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Mills

By the way, I'm adjusting the valves by starting with #1 cyl, when the exh starts to open, adjust the intake (do the same for all cyl's) then back on #1 when the intake is almost closed, adjust the exhaust (do same for all cyls). [/b]

I'm sure you need to adjust at TDC, not when exh starts to open.........

cobra427mnsi · #22 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 05:16 PM

Attached is how Steve Christ in his book "Big Block Ford Engines" explains to adjust valves. The small grey boxes contain charts that show which valve to set when #1 and #6 cylinders are at TDC.

Paul

Excaliber · #23 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 05:24 PM

Theres the matrix for valve adjustment! I knew it had to written down SOME WHERE!

Good post cobra427mnsi!

Ernie

427 S/O · #24 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 05:31 PM

Paul your right, Steve does say that but I would never use that system on a solid
lift, only hyd.

Ron61 · #25 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 06:41 PM

Brent,

Don't despaire. This is going to turn out to be something that everyone will be surprised by. I wish I could tell you more but I am by no stretch of iminigation an engine expert. This could have happened no matter who built the engine as none of us are perfect. I know the feeling of complete disgust, turning to despair and then the why me syndrome. Been there done that. Twice so far and if I live long enough most likely another time at least. George Anderson and DV and Don will get you all straightened out. And who else around this side of the country has a romping 427 that has been so taken care of. Not a lot of people just drive theirs in 15 minutes blasts.

Just a little humor to try and lighten the frustration. I know you have worked long and hard and it has to be about to drive you nuts. But hang in there until the heavy guns get a chance to look into it. They will have it straightened out in no time I am sure. Keep us posted as this nis something that a lot of guys may need to know in the future.

Ron

cobra427mnsi · #26 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 07:23 PM

427 S/O

Just curious as to the reason you wouldn't use this chart on a solid lifter engine? I am not an expert in any sense of the word, but I thought that there was no lash adjustment for hydraulic lifters. I am always curious and willing to learn new stuff.

Paul

Tom T. · #27 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 07:32 PM

Brent,

If I had any real knowledge I'd fly up there and help. It ain't fair. Having said that, work with George and the rest of these guys and you'll get past it. Hang in there.

Tom T.

Keithc8 · #28 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 10:02 PM

I have been reading this and all of the questions and responses. Number one there is no problem with the way you are setting the valves, this is the best way with any camshaft because this gets you on the absolute lowest place on the base circle of the camshaft. When exhaust starts to open set the intake and when the intake starts to close set the exhaust. You use this on any normal v8 90 degree engine. You will need to set lash about .002 loose whan you have a steel block and head combo, if steel block aliminum heads set the valves about .002 to .003 tight and if you have a aliminum block and heads you will have to set about .010 to .012 tight because of growth when the parts warm up. This is for valve adjustment when engine cold. Now as far as losing the lash the FE's have some problems with the cam bearings going bad depending on the spring pressure used. Do you what spring pressure the heads were set up at anyway, to much and can knock the lobes of the camshaft. We break a lot of the cams in with breakin springs then install the springs we are going to run. You might want to check and make sure that solid lifters were installed and not hydralics by accident. Just some thought but sounds like the engine is going to have to come down anyway. When the car stopped on you it may have finally ceased the camshaft. I know we have had these engines spin a camshaft on the dyno for no reason other than you are dealing with a 40 year old block. Good luck, Keith Craft

Brent Mills · #29 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 10:05 PM

Regardless of the method for adjustment (cam manufacturers recommend the way I did it, and so did my builder, and I'm sure there's plenty of other ways), the fact remains that the adjustment is going somewhere.

George, I'll pull the rocker assembly again and take another look at the push rods, but I don't recall any way that there could be any compression of the push rod ends, and I didn't see any wear on either end of the rod. No signs of metal near the rockers, and the one lifter I pulled out was clean in the cup. The only other thing it would seem is the damn cam, but....

In addition, I either lost fuel, lost spark, or something else this afternoon, as I had to be towed home. This is really frustrating.

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas. I've been sulking around all afternoon. Hard to get this crap off the mind.....

Brent Mills · #30 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 10:13 PM

Keith, saw your post after I just posted. I don't recall the exact spring pressure, but my builder suggested we go light on pressure and cam for street use. about .540 lift. The thing that is puzzling is that I pulled the lifter from the bore (definately solid) and the base looks fine and I've had to adjust every single one of them suckers, so I would think that the lifter would be seriously messed up if the cam is hosed on the base of the lobe. I can understand the high side of the cam getting cut down, but the base (where I'm setting the lash) seems like it wouldn't get buggered up without some serious signs of problems on the lifters....Guessing there. What a pisser.

Oh, and when you say "spin a camshaft", are you referring to the bearings? When I turn the thing over by hand, I see all the rockers doing their thing still. So confused....

Keithc8 · #31 (**permalink**) 08-31-2003, 11:11 PM

If the lifters are fine then the camshaft lobes should also be fine. I have had this happen on the dyno and the cam bearings spun in the block. This ate up the camshaft and the block and gained lash like a cam going flat. The FE with the groove cut behind the cam bearings and then the cam bearings being so narrow will cause this. Usually you see it happen with bigger camshaft and spring pressures. That is why we use roller cam bearings now on most of the high lift roller cams with the big spring pressure we are now running. I feel your pain, should do this crap for a living. Good luck

Doug I · #32 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 12:06 AM

Don't know if this applies or will be any help - but it's a thought and I don't think it'll make things any worse.

This comes from my motorcycle days when I once or twice set the vlave lash - and from when I had a mini.

What I'm familar with is a small screw that you turned to set the gap then locked it with the lam nut.

Could the end of that screw be 'soft' (bad batch of them) and wearing or deforming under the loads on it. The nut would still be tight - nothing I read so far would be wearing but if the adjustment screw itself was deforming it would let the lash get bigger.

Just a thought - hope it helps.

Brent Mills · #33 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 12:34 AM

How do I verify if it's the cam bearings?

concobra · #34 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 12:52 AM

Brent

I did not read all the posts so if this was already stated forgive the repeat.

"By the way, I'm adjusting the valves by starting with #1 cyl, when the exh starts to open, adjust the intake (do the same for all cyl's) then back on #1 when the intake is almost closed, adjust the exhaust (do same for all cyls). [/b]"

Your lash method is a little different than the norm but considering the points at which you choose to lash should work. The only variable that may occur is (forgive this suggestion) that you may be mixing up the intake and exhaust valve positions in the cylinder heads. As they reverse positions for the front two cylinders to the back two. This would cause you to be lashing the intakes when they are slightly open.

The best way to lash a long duration cam is to lash each cylinder at TDC. If you do not have a fully degreed dampener you can put your engine on #1 TDC, rotate your dist. to where the rotor points directly at #1 on the Dist cap. Then mark on the body of the dist. where #1 is located. You can then mark every cylinder wire location around the body off the cap towers. Heat up the engine, rotate to #1, lash, then follow the timing order to complete. This method assures accurate lash settings.

The method discribed by Steve Christ is an excellent method when using a stock or low duration/ large LDA cam. But should not be used with a cam of your size. Large gross duration lobes may through this method off.

Once you lash at TDC for each cylinder you can eliminate the option of the open or low lash variable that may exist with your current lashing method.

I hope this helps and good luck.

427 S/O · #35 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 04:55 AM

I prefer to be a little more pecise with my engines, doing it the 'hard' way assures me everything is set correctly. True, hyd needs no lash settings and the 'fast' way is fine. I don't build engines for a living, I build them for me and, there is nothing wrong with a 30+ year old block if it's solid and built correctly.

GEORGE ANDERSON · #36 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 06:11 AM

Brent...you haven't mentioned what the tip of the valves look like yet...
you know that lash is coming from somewhere.....
I'm really sorry our main ClubCobra Man is starting to really get pissed....do not give up.....
George.....

trularin · #37 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 07:12 AM

Brent, I only read the first page of this thread, so if someone else has a suggest along this line, then this is backup.

There was a number of ajustable nuts that come loose even after repeated setting. I have a set, thought I was loosing my mind ( most people know I have ) as the valve train would go out of whack after a short period of time.

Finally had to switch to another suppliers adjustable nuts to fix it.

What we did to find the problem was just about everything all the other suggestions cover. Then I measured the distance to the nut from the top of the stud. As it got shorter and shorter, we determined the nut was walking back the threads.

Also had a head that the press in studs walked out, acted the same way. I would think you have screw in studs and they are secure.

Well, I hope this helps. I am not sure I would want you buying my lottery tickets.

Good luck.

Ron61 · #38 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 07:13 AM

Brent,

It seems strange that you would lose fuel or spark from this problem. Are you running a stock cam driven fuel pump ? Also if the distributor quit turning that would come from the cam would it not. This is just guessing but these are two things that could be related to the cam. Ask George what he thinks. This would almost sound as if maybe you should pull the cam and have a really close look at it. So far if I have managed to keep everything straight, ALL adjustments are going off after a very short time, Car runs rough and noisy, (Normal if adjustments are off), and now a loss of either fuel or spark. Just a thought but things seem to be adding up.

Ron

Eljaro · #39 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 08:56 AM

Brent,
your cam bearings may be chewing up as someone else suggested. Before you pull the camshaft from the engine, drain the oil and/or take the oil filter out and pour the contents out.
If the oil and the filter have a lot of metal
flake, your cam bearings are wearing off.
The cam bearings have one hole which has to align with the oil hole in the block.
If this oil-hole is not aligned properly, because it was either badly installed or because has spun in its lodging, you are getting no oil to your camshaft bearings and they are running almost dry.
So go check your oil before you do anything else. It´s like making a blood analisys before surgical intervention.

And by the way, cobra owners are masochists. No one would go through all the hassle when there are perfect cars out there with 5 year warranties.
But then, what sounds better than a Cobra in Tunnel ?????????????

Good luck, and don´t give up!!

Brent Mills · #40 (**permalink**) 09-01-2003, 09:59 AM

George, the tips of the valves look fine, smooth, with only wear just a strip which you can't really feel, but looks different where the roller makes contact.

trularin, at first I thought that might be the problem, but as I keep adjusting, the screws are ending up deeper and deeper as I look at the location compared to the lock nut.

Ron, it is strange that I either lost spark or fuel, which at this point I suspect fuel, but....Not absolutely certain of that yet. No, not a mechanical pump, so not related.....What the heck take two.

Eljaro, I'll be taking the filter off today and cutting into it.



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