Cryogenically frozen engine parts ?

[GregN]

Is there anyone out there than have anything good or bad to say about Cryogenically freezing engine componets.

I have heard a few good things about the process. I am building an alum. engine and I want to know if I should go to the expense of having some of the parts frozen.

Greg

[sgianino]

For real !!
It would be money in the bank if you really think about it ,looking at what an old stewart warner fuel pump sold for on Ebay @ $430 my guess it was a $30-40 part back in the days.Grab one of them huge meat freezers and go for it

[computerworks]

S.G... he's serious... this is not like Ted Williams' head.

"Aluminum, with it's high surface residual stress, responds incredibly well to the deep cryo process becoming very stable dimensionally, standing up to the most demanding machining."

The racing motorcycle world is well into this process.

Read more here...

[foothills gary]

Greg,this is a new one on me!To my knowledge,cryogenics was used to supposedly relieve stress from cutting the rifling in inexpensive,production firearms.Some have claimed that it also realigns the "grain"in the metal to help increase accuracy.In an automobile,I would assume forging would accomplish more.It always seemed like so much flim flam to me,but maybe its real.Anybody in the know care to comment?

[trularin]

Actually, this is a very acceptable way to make a part true.

It has been done in the arms industry for years and I have heard that auto parts that go through the process are as true as they can be afterwards.

If you have deep pockets, this is a first step in blueprinting a bigHP engine.

If you do this, would you do us a favor and tell us how it turns out?

I would be interested in hearding if it works as well for your auto parts as it did on a barrel of a rifle I own.

Good look.

Trularin

[chuckbrandt]

I seem to remember that, could be crazy.

Chuck

[Double Venom]

Do a search!

When we built our first "Double Venom" cars, we did quite a bit of research on having the rotors frozen. Three years ago a lot of the Viper racers were doing this, but really haven't kept up with it.

It's all about "aligning" and molecular "stuff" that is well over my head! The wifes freezer aint gonna cut it. Hundreds of degrees below zip and then a special thawing process.

DV...sure wish someone would do it!

[Mark IV]

....you have your parts frozen, you can then have them thawed out in the future when science has found a cure for metal fatigue!

Just like Walt.....

Rick

[larryar]

Tests have proven that cryogenic freezing improves the accuracy of rifles, both match and hunting.
Larry

[trularin]

The item in question needs to be frozen to something like -250 to -273. Just about where all molecular motion stops.

Then the material is allowed to rise to room temperature.

Does wonders on rifles with 'wondering' trajectories.

This should not be use in lue of poor reciever designs like the M77.

Just my $0.02

[Excaliber]

-273 Celsius is -459 F, which is absolute zero, molecular activity virtually stops (ZERO on the Kelvin scale).

297 K is 24 °C or 75 °F

However, liquid nitrogen temperature compared to -273 C is quite warm (77 K, -196 Celsius or ?? F)

I assume the parts in question would be dipped in nitrogen, as "absolute zero" can realistically be achieved only in laboratory conditions. Liquid hydrogen (4 K) is much much colder than nitrogen, all though still "warm" compared to absolute zero.

Liqiud Helium is the champ, 2 K

I worked on two of the Mauna Kea observatories on the island of Hawaii. Some of the scientists could do their observations using liquid nitrogen, others experiments had to use hydrogen. In the case of hydrogen they would use nitrogen as a "pre cooler". It was a long laborius process to get their instruments cooled down to liquid hydrogen temps.

Ernie

A better link for an explanation of the process is here:

http://pages.istar.ca/~cryo/theprocess.htm

[Jack21]

Go to the above site mentioned by computerworks. It goes to Mondello Performance of Oldsmobile performance fame, and Mondello offers this service.

[trularin]

In a nut, Ernie, Cold!

I always wondered how you ended up on an Island.

[Mr.Fixit]

Originally posted by larryar


Tests have proven that cryogenic freezing improves the accuracy of rifles, both match and hunting.
Larry

Lilja, who makes someof the world's best barrels, disagrees.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm

[Excaliber]

The work I was doing on Mauna Kea was related to air conditioning. Keeping the "mirrors" on the telescope the same temp as the outside air when the dome was opened. And making sure the temps were stable across the surface of the mirror to prevent warping.

I used to "hang out" in the physics lab at Georgetown Univeristy to "soak up" whatever thermal dynamics education I could get. I find it quite fascinating.

I REMAIN skeptical of the long term benefits to metal using this process. Cost/benefit analysis has not yet been "proven" to my satisfaction.

Ernie

EDIT: I came to Hawaii because it was WARM. And then they send me to coldest freeking place within 3000 miles.

[Woodz428]

There's a place 50 miles from here that does guns, Winston cup engines Drag racing engines and even panty hose. It's a fairly reasonable price to have the whole engine treated and worth it if their claims are true. It creates a similar change as does tempering but it doesn't change dimensionally. I'm thinking about doing an old 392 Hemi engine. They have apparently developed the cool down and temp raising times with the aid of computers.

[Excaliber]

Cool down begins with nitrogen gas then moves on to liquid nitrogen for a long "soak". The process is reversed to bring the part back to room temperature. Looked to me like it was about $400 to $500 for a set of heads? Man, surely it doesn't cost THAT MUCH?

It appears that the benefit is two fold:

Greater strength in the "shear" area. When the rod "breaks" it breaks "clean". I ASSUME this leads one to conclude that the metal is "stronger" and the stress required to "break" a connecting rod would be increased? How MUCH stronger seems to be "speculation" as their are have been no hard numbers generated by "lab tests" to date. I would suspect the extra strength is not substantial enough to warrant the additional expense except under the most extreme conditions. Like balls to the wall racing with a BIG budget!

The second "gain" is in the area of "wear". A treated rifle barrel will take longer to wear out than an untreated rifle barrel. Which caused me to wonder: How many bullets does it take to wear out a rifle barrel? Depending on the number of bullets fired it could take YEARS! Sounds like your Grand kids will thank you long after your gone for cryogenically treating rifle they inherit.

Now, how would greater "strength" and "wear" properties translate to say, an engine head? If you generate enough force in the first place to crack a head I'm skeptical a little extra "strength" will make that much difference!

Wear: As in, where does a head "wear"? Valve seats, guides or valves themselves? I would consider (but probably would not) have just THOSE individual parts treated rather than the whole head. Then again, I think I'd just buy the best dam valves and best dam seats money could buy in the first place. I might use the money I saved on the best "porting" job I could find!

There is ONE area where I could see potential cost/benefit:

Extreme high rpm motorcycle crankshaft/connecting rod combinations!

Ernie the analyst,,,,(or just anal, take your pick).

[Woodz428]

I've got a price list from this company,I'll have to dig it out. I recall that the complete engine(V8) was only in the $650 range,but will check out the price list and post some prices.

[CStraub]

You will find more benefit in vibrational stress relief. Metalax is one company that makes the equipment. This is successfully used by the cup teams to take stress out of parts that have been welded, machine, forged, etc. You can do each part or the entire engine. Documented proof on springs, ring tension, connecting rod life has been recorded with excellent results and improved performance.

Cstraub

[decooney]

Here are some reviews that are referred to on the onecryo.com website, quote:

Cryogenic Tempering for Increased Durability and Performance for Racing


"Articles about Deep Cryogenic Tempering have been published in numerous publications such as Performance Racing Industry – July 1998, Modern Application News – March 1998, Winston Cup Scene - December 1997, Motorcycle Magazine - October 1996, National Speed Sport News - September 25th 1996, Cruisin' Style - September 1996, Metlfax - August 1996, Orlando Sentinel, Sports - September 5th 1996, Orlando Sentinel, Business -July 15th 1996, just to name a few. Deep Cryogenic Tempering has also been featured on the Discovery Channel's "NextStep" program by Paul and Phil "the answer guys", episode 83 Fall 1995, as well as on TNN's "Inside NASCAR" December 1997, hosted by Ned Jarret.

http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/motorsport-brochure2.htm